Iran vs US/Israel conflict escalating

[Guest theSun]

lol

[murve33]

This needs to be posted again, apparently.

 

lol expert troll.

 

In America they're much more civilized - 7 years in jail for stealing sneakers

 

if only the Iranians could be as honorable in war as the Americans (US Army staff sergeant jailed for attacks on Afghan civilians (for 9 months....ooooh))

 

And your "wiped off the map" quote is incorrect

 

Iranian leaders aren't stupid, they know to fire nuclear weapons at Israel would mean the end of their regime. They want to stay in power and not be dead. Thus - no fear of them launching nukes. Americans on the other hand, who would suffer no real loss at another war in the middle east, well I'm not so sure of their ability to restrain themselves.

 

Finally, Iran isn't going to block the Strait of Hormuz - who suffers more? Yeah the west might have to pay a bit more for oil, but since oil makes up such a huge percentage of Iranian exports, combined with the sanctions if they did block the strait, Iran's economy would be the one to go on a freefall.

http://www.businessw...-sanctions.html

Mouse: I would think that the government and court system are two different entities. The court system in Turkey is really corrupt/shitty (not disgusting like Iran's, but shitty) but that doesn't bleed into their military. The same can be said about many countries, probably including Iran.

 

Joshuatxuk: I agree with all that you said in that 2nd paragraph. Was unaware that "elements remain committed to eliminating those said militants from their troubled provinces", but that was probably me being blinded by pessimism over anything. I suppose we'd have to be allies with them for a reason other than they have nukes. Pisses me off that we're all bent out of shape about Iran having nukes when Pakistan has them though. Edit: Jeez, reading links that linked off of the link you linked now. What a mess.

[marf]

the people of these countries need to continue to topple their governments. Otherwise the whole "its just a minority fanatical fringe group" and its really a religion of peace, honest, argument doesn't hold up

[joshuatxuk]

the people of these countries need to continue to topple their governments. Otherwise the whole "its just a minority fanatical fringe group" and its really a religion of peace, honest, argument doesn't hold up

 

Joshuatxuk: I agree with all that you said in that 2nd paragraph. Was unaware that "elements remain committed to eliminating those said militants from their troubled provinces", but that was probably me being blinded by pessimism over anything. I suppose we'd have to be allies with them for a reason other than they have nukes. Pisses me off that we're all bent out of shape about Iran having nukes when Pakistan has them though. Edit: Jeez, reading links that linked off of the link you linked now. What a mess.

 

Yeah I was referring to this: http://en.wikipedia..../Waziristan_War I've seen a lot of coverage on PBS and BBC news, etc. Pretty sure I caught one of these programs It's really a parallel war, US and Pakistani objectives overlap and coincide, but they are not coordinated in the manner of ISAF-Afghan operations or US Coalition-Iraq operations.

 

The Pakistani commanders I saw in that documentary seemed sincere in their mission, much in the same way the American troops on the ground do when I hear them interviewed on NPR. I'm sure only certain army units are reliable, a lot of nations have more apparent divisions politically and ideologically than we're used to in the States or major EU and G8 countries. Whereas Pakistan has actual opposition to the war on militants internally, the US and ISAF are trying to battle apathy and cynicism. I have a co-worker whose son works for Xe (Blackwater) and he was pissed their contract to train Afghan army troops was ending, because they're standards are much higher than that of US Army trainers; he said it wasn't uncommon for Aghans to get killed "on accident" in training operations by US military forces, whereas Xe and other contractors are under way more scrutiny. This is pretty harsh, but while I believe the majority of US military personal are, at very the least, somewhat professional, there can't be much motivation for even the most gung-ho personal to want to engage in yet another seemingly endless and frustrating operation in Iran or anywhere else. Experienced soldiers have been deployed more than most Nam' vets. The only people crazy enough to go to war are the same idiots that shouldn't be in the military to begin with...the psychopaths that just want to kill towelheads. We don't need another FOB Ramrod incident. The views on Iran's regime would easy motivate such incidents in any hypothetical invasion/intervention there.

[murve33]

I think there will always be completely normal people who take a gamble, sign up for the U.S. military for benefits, and get deployed. Just because everyone is tired of being deployed like crazy doesn't mean the bulk of our military will be made up of psychopaths like those involved in that Ramrod incident.

 

Right?

 

Also, I love Frontline (Although it generally ends up making me feel depressed), and I'll try to watch a couple of those programs tomorrow.

[joshuatxuk]

I think there will always be completely normal people who take a gamble, sign up for the U.S. military for benefits, and get deployed. Just because everyone is tired of being deployed like crazy doesn't mean the bulk of our military will be made up of psychopaths like those involved in that Ramrod incident.

 

Right?

 

Also, I love Frontline (Although it generally ends up making me feel depressed), and I'll try to watch a couple of those programs tomorrow.

 

Most good documentaries have that effect on me too

 

Yeah I think you're absolutely correct. That came off less focused and harsher than I intended. Actually, if anything, most new recruits probably expect to be deployed now, and even if they didn't, I don't sympathize much with the anti-war AWOL/deserters in 2003. Even if they were well-meaning in their intentions, they should of known what to expect (especially if prone to anti-war sympathies) if they had any familiarity with US foreign policy. the military usually just discharges after jail time (I'm hoping the Bradley Manning case doesn't set new backwards thinking on what qualifies as treason...anyway I digress). I guess what I meant to say is that unlike the Kosovo intervention, the first Gulf War, or the various operations the US conducted in the cold war (Grenada, Panama, etc) the "War On Terror" has been extremely frustrating in terms of morale, even when tactical successes are achieved frequently. Imagine a fast, tangible operation spanning days or weeks versus months and years of dealing with IEDs and snipers while in a hostile and unforgiving environment, and on top of that having few chances to engage in any clear-cut combat. It makes the very small percentage of bad apples commit unspeakable actions in our otherwise professional military. It's a shame that so often the top brass go with cover-ups and distortions before serious action is taken.

 

FYI This is all coming from a military dependent who still has many friends and family in service now. I respect the people who serve, even if the institution has flaws and inconsistent standards when it comes to leadership and recruiting that need to be addressed honestly.

[awepittance]

6 pages until thread devolves into racism. not bad.

 

I have no idea how he still respects me when half of our conversations revolve around me and my sister making horrible racist jokes. He knows i don't mean it and tells me if it really bugs him. he and his family are amazing people and have shown me that iranians/persians are amazing people and have a gorgeous culture. not like i didn't think that before but now i consider it undeniable. which is why the widespread hatred of iran makes me sad. i'm going to be going there closer to the end of this year. I'm also probably going to try and hit on his sister which will be amazing seeing as i don't speak faarsi.

 

Unfortunateely Iran is very much in the dark ages.......especially when it comes to morality and justice.

 

also unfortunately there are many other countries in the world that still practice barbarism. Why we single out Iran however is the key question people need to ask themselves. Does Iran have resources we need? Do they impede our global chess game? because it sure as shit isn't some sort of humanitarian push to stop Iran from being a certain way. We want them taken the fuck out

[awepittance]

They have the morals of neanderthals.

Just imagine how restrained they'd be with nuclear capability.

 

are you talking about the iranian people or the iranian government?

 

if you just want to talk about morals and how many people the iranian government has killed, the US still wins. You want to talk about who imprisons more of their population for non violent and petty crimes for longer periods of time? Oops the United states wins again!

[murve33]

Joshuatxuk: Ah, now that second paragraph in that 2nd to last post by you makes since. And in that case, I'm a tad worried about the inner psychopath coming out in psychopaths.

 

They have the morals of neanderthals.

Just imagine how restrained they'd be with nuclear capability.

 

are you talking about the iranian people or the iranian government?

 

if you just want to talk about morals and how many people the iranian government has killed, the US still wins. You want to talk about who imprisons more of their population for non violent and petty crimes for longer periods of time? Oops the United states wins again!

The U.S. doesn't hang rape victims from a crane. Stop comparing the two in this case because they are incomparable.

[joshuatxuk]

Joshuatxuk: Ah, now that second paragraph in that 2nd to last post by you makes since. And in that case, I'm a tad worried about the inner psychopath coming out in psychopaths.

 

They have the morals of neanderthals.

Just imagine how restrained they'd be with nuclear capability.

 

are you talking about the iranian people or the iranian government?

 

if you just want to talk about morals and how many people the iranian government has killed, the US still wins. You want to talk about who imprisons more of their population for non violent and petty crimes for longer periods of time? Oops the United states wins again!

The U.S. doesn't hang rape victims from a crane. Stop comparing the two in this case because they are incomparable.

 

I've with Murve on that. It's apples and oranges. In my opinion it's the far right rhetoric in America that's most troubling. Take the most hawkish GOP candidates, Gringrich and Santorum, and you have one who wanted to implement death penalties for major illicit drug offenses and another who wants to abolish pornography and homosexual acts (under the delusion that right to privacy doesn't exist). They aren't pro-democracy, they're just for American exceptionalism and spreading Christian fundamentalism. On social issues they could easily have a friendly chat with the Supreme Leader of Iran.

[SR4]

Joshuatxuk: Ah, now that second paragraph in that 2nd to last post by you makes since. And in that case, I'm a tad worried about the inner psychopath coming out in psychopaths.

 

They have the morals of neanderthals.

Just imagine how restrained they'd be with nuclear capability.

 

are you talking about the iranian people or the iranian government?

 

if you just want to talk about morals and how many people the iranian government has killed, the US still wins. You want to talk about who imprisons more of their population for non violent and petty crimes for longer periods of time? Oops the United states wins again!

The U.S. doesn't hang rape victims from a crane. Stop comparing the two in this case because they are incomparable.

 

What other countries hang rape victims from a crane? Im guessing a number in Central Africa, probably Yemen or Qatar or Bahrain, probably some southeastern Asian dictatorships.

 

Why aren't we trying to fuck up their day?

 

You are missing the forest for the trees. Iran in terms of diplomatic practices and threats is far less of a problematic regime than, oh, lets say North Korea. But you don't see anyone posting day after day atrocities conducted in Pyongang and that we need to nuke them once and for all before they overrun our allies in the south.

 

Maybe its because Iran is worse. Or maybe its because North Korea don't have shit in the way of precious resources that could benefit globalized mega-industries.

[HoA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEKQSuS1q2Q

 

 

 

2:14

[awepittance]

Joshuatxuk: Ah, now that second paragraph in that 2nd to last post by you makes since. And in that case, I'm a tad worried about the inner psychopath coming out in psychopaths.

 

They have the morals of neanderthals.

Just imagine how restrained they'd be with nuclear capability.

 

are you talking about the iranian people or the iranian government?

 

if you just want to talk about morals and how many people the iranian government has killed, the US still wins. You want to talk about who imprisons more of their population for non violent and petty crimes for longer periods of time? Oops the United states wins again!

The U.S. doesn't hang rape victims from a crane. Stop comparing the two in this case because they are incomparable.

 

What other countries hang rape victims from a crane? Im guessing a number in Central Africa, probably Yemen or Qatar or Bahrain, probably some southeastern Asian dictatorships.

 

Why aren't we trying to fuck up their day?

 

You are missing the forest for the trees. Iran in terms of diplomatic practices and threats is far less of a problematic regime than, oh, lets say North Korea. But you don't see anyone posting day after day atrocities conducted in Pyongang and that we need to nuke them once and for all before they overrun our allies in the south.

 

Maybe its because Iran is worse. Or maybe its because North Korea don't have shit in the way of precious resources that could benefit globalized mega-industries.

 

im glad someone understands my point, the US doesn't hang rape victims from a crane. But it has through the use of shock and awe explosives murdered more children in the world than Iran has in it's entire history. I mean what's really worse?

 

im not comparing Iran to america, im trying to point out that Iran doesn't 'win' or take 1st prize in any sort of humanitarian crime award in the world. A lot of nations are just as bad or worse that we or the western world doesn't seem to care about invading or bombing.

 

however the united states does win certain 1st place prizes on poor humanitarianism. In the last 40 years we've dropped more bombs on the entire world than every country combined, and we have the highest incarceration rate in the entire world. What this means it hat the US puts more of their own citizenry in jail than China or Iran

 

If you're going to talk about extreme unique characteristics of a countries poor record, Iran isn't really that notable imo. but in the context of the doctrine laid out in PNAC it makes perfect sense why the focus is on Iran. It's just absolutely laughable when neocons or their minions try to actually say humanitarianism even remotely has to do with our agenda towards Iran. the humanitarian angle merely gives them a lot of leverage when needing to throw down the hammer.

You have every right to complain about the horrendous ways in which Iran exerts control over their populace, just don't do it in a vacuum.

[chenGOD]

the people of these countries need to continue to topple their governments. Otherwise the whole "its just a minority fanatical fringe group" and its really a religion of peace, honest, argument doesn't hold up

I know - the ultra-violent christians who keep invading other countries need to be overthrown.

[awepittance]

haha

[murve33]

Perhaps I missed your point. I'm just going to clarify mine.

 

Like Joshuatxuk said it's apples in oranges. This thread is about Iran so we're talking about Iran. We (The West) are also not all up in Iran's grill because of the Crane incident, it's because of the apparent Nuclear weapons.

 

AND I am not in any way or form for invading Iran. I actually want them to have nuclear weapons. Actually I want no one to have nuclear weapons, but that's not going to happen any time soon, is it?.

 

Edit: 2k on my way!

Edit 2: Added "apparent" to my 2nd paragraph.

[GORDO]

there's not even evidence that they are even trying to get nuclear weapons afaik.

 

but the U.S. is doing a fine job in cornering them into getting them.

[essines]

there's not even evidence that they are even trying to get nuclear weapons afaik.

 

but the U.S. is doing a fine job in cornering them into getting them.

there's not even evidence that they are even trying to get nuclear weapons afaik.

 

but the U.S. is doing a fine job in cornering them into getting them.

 

right? this all seems so familiar.

[goDel]

there's not even evidence that they are even trying to get nuclear weapons afaik.

 

but the U.S. is doing a fine job in cornering them into getting them.

 

Wasn't the point that Iran keeps evidence back even though it claims to develop nuclear technologies for energy/scientific purposes? Like for instance the underground site at Qom? There's an international distrust with respect to iran's intentions. The us or israel are perhaps more vocal about it. But the distrust is way beyond being a consequence of the us/israel being vocal about it.

 

On a tangent: if the anti-us sentiments were consistent, there should be a lot of anti-china sentiments as well. Their dependence on iranian oil is no secret. But instead of helping the situation by, for instance, forcing Iran to be open about their nuclear programs, they downplay international concerns and help maintaining the status quo. Which pays them off in terms of cheap oil the rest of the west doesn't buy. China fairs really well with the current crisis.

 

IMO, this isn't a Iran vs. US/Israel thing. The Iran vs. US/Israel thing is merely superficial. And especially Iran and China benefit from framing it as some purely US/Israel instigated problem. Iran uses it to keep their people in check. China is in it for the oil.

[GORDO]

hey remember that time when they accused Iraq of keeping evidence back of wmds and then iraq said fuck it lets just let inspectors into our country and let them look at everything and then they got destroyed anyway? fun times.

[murve33]

hey remember that time when they accused Iraq of keeping evidence back of wmds and then iraq said fuck it lets just let inspectors into our country and let them look at everything and then they got destroyed anyway? fun times.

Now I'm depressed.

[Guest yikes]

everyone is ignoring the 600 pound gorilla in the room-israel

 

most of this geo-politcal fuckery is due to israel's fear of being vaporized + the thirst for big oil.

[Guest Gary C]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/11/bomb-kills-iranian-nuclear-scientist

 

An Iranian university professor working at a key nuclear facility has been killed in a bomb explosion, the latest in a series of assassinations and attempted killings linked by the country's authorities to a secret war byIsrael and the US to stop the development of what Tehran insists would be a peaceful nuclear capability.

 

That or an Iranian conspiracy to encourage a sense of embattlement and government support.

[perunamuusi]

http://www.guardian....clear-scientist

 

An Iranian university professor working at a key nuclear facility has been killed in a bomb explosion, the latest in a series of assassinations and attempted killings linked by the country's authorities to a secret war byIsrael and the US to stop the development of what Tehran insists would be a peaceful nuclear capability.

 

That or an Iranian conspiracy to encourage a sense of embattlement and government support.

 

 

the 4th assassination of its kind on Iranian physicists (working in the nuclear program) in 2 years.

[chenGOD]

Except in Iran elected officials don't vote on the law.

Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are ordering military supplies from the US? Shocking. 3 client states ordering from the US. Never would have seen that one coming.

 

As to Iran producing nuclear weapons - let's let the IAEA tell us how they see it. And a former top Iranian official tells why the west is pushing Iran in the wrong direction.