auxien Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Mesh Gear Fox said: so you're saying you don't think american people work hard enough to deserve any of these things? how? don't you think they deserve these things regardless of how much money they're making for their bosses? the American people don't deserve great health care (as one example) if they do not force and demand it and work for it (by voting and being informed and aware and taking action in relevant ways). we don't, obviously, as we've let it run wild for decades, and continue to financially support the shittiest of corporations, and vote for the candidates more worried about greasing their own palms than helping out the poor and underserved. many of the problems are systemic but we're far too lulled into contentment and ignorance so it's gotten worse and we keep letting it slide a little longer....this applies to many things in America, not just health care of course. 'deserve' is a difficult word, but no one is born 'deserving' anything really. what is 'deserved' according to you or some other random person near you or what you'd say is 'deserved' now versus what you'd say is ten years ago or ten years from now may change....just like what is 'deserved' via what someone a hundred years ago would've said.....societies collectively choose to impart what is deserved on those in their keep, but that's getting into some of the much bigger near-philosophical issues facing America and many (all) nations: immigration, destruction of the environment for profit, climate change as a whole, etc. do i want every single child and person cared for and helped in whatever ways they need? sure, yeah, great. but that's not the case in America or in many many other places in the world, hasn't been pretty much ever in the entirety of history. the only places where that's getting closer to reality are places that have forced it, which is what America needs to do. if we can't get off our asses and read and vote and demand that systemically nationwide, then we deserve to pay for the sins of not doing that every second that it continues to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxien Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 17 hours ago, goDel said: So, about that whistleblower on Trump, what do you think are the odds Bolton is the whistleblower? My spidersense says this is Bolton.... *shoots web* i doubt it, but who knows. it's probably all nothing but the normal Trump bullshit, it'll probably all come out soon enough tho so we'll see 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 11 hours ago, auxien said: the American people are the government and the corporations tho, of course. we allow it to happen. no passes. we only deserve what we work for, as all things in life imo. if we don't wanna work hard enough to get good health care, raise the quality of education, etc., then we don't deserve it. I fundamentally disagree. The idea that the system is fair and everyone gets what they deserve (rich people are rich because they perform, poor people are poor because they're losers) is the core of neoliberal ideology which is the cause of many of the problems. Americans do have to work pretty hard for companies so there is little energy left to be politically active (not solely an American problem but a capitalist one). Plus, the 24/7 neoliberal propaganda doesn't help. Not saying all the media is corrupt but there are interests involved, too, and most outlets aren't very reflected about their ideological content. The spread of mental disorders such as depression isn't really empowering people, either. This whole we're bad and don't deserve it because we don't work hard enough self-mortification is a very Protestant way of thinking. And Protestantism is one of the reason this sort of elbow capitalism emerged in the first place, spread to the US and went rampant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 So what is the alternative? The people are the victims of a few in power? If that were the case, Trump wouldn't have ended up in the White House. He wouldn't even had won the GOP primaries back in 2016. I think you might be arguing too much from the opposite side here. And I tend to agree with Auxien here. Simply because the cynical shit about the system being fundamentally unfair and people voting doesn't count and all that nonsense. It's self-deprecating nonsense. Even if there can be some truth to it. No democracy is perfect. If the people really didn't have the power though, the ACA would have been nuked in Trumps first year in the office. And that certainly didn't happen. Thanks to all the people actually doing what they're supposed to do: taking part in the democratic process and being politically active. My take is that if the systems looks like it isn't fair, you may need to invest a little more of your time to understand how the democratic process actually works. A democracy is built on laws. And those laws are there for you and to protect the democratic institution itself. Not coorporations or capitalism and all that other shit that gets blamed for basically everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubin Farr Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 On 9/17/2019 at 2:59 PM, colunga said: loses popular vote by 8 million but electoral college comes thru again I'm betting whoever has damning audio or video of Trump is sitting on it until right before the election, similar to the Access Hollywood tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. It's a combination of a societal problem and a structural one. Both aspects perpetuate each other. It's truly a wonder that there is so much democracy left despite the undemocratic nature of free market economy. Edited September 20, 2019 by darreichungsform @goDel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 hours ago, auxien said: deserve' is a difficult word, but no one is born 'deserving' anything really. I mean, we (the global we) laid out some pretty good things that people are deserving in 1948: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ You're right thought, we need to work hard to ensure those rights, and we (again the global we) are often short-sighted in our decision making process. 1 hour ago, darreichungsform said: It's a combination of a societal problem and a structural one. Both aspects perpetuate each other. It's truly a wonder that there is so much democracy left despite the undemocratic nature of free market economy. That's a bingo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyrex Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Rubin Farr said: I'm betting whoever has damning audio or video of Trump is sitting on it until right before the election, similar to the Access Hollywood tape. Let's hope so! Also, LOL at Justin Trudeau: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 4 hours ago, goDel said: So what is the alternative? The alternative to an elbow capitalism is a capitalism that's tamed by social politics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 5 hours ago, Rubin Farr said: I'm betting whoever has damning audio or video of Trump is sitting on it until right before the election, similar to the Access Hollywood tape. a video could be released of donnie wearing blackface, screaming the N word, whacking off to pics of Ivanka whilst being pissed on by strippers, and it still wouldn't matter...he's guaranteed to get 40% of the vote no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 17 minutes ago, zero said: a video could be released of donnie wearing blackface, screaming the N word, whacking off to pics of Ivanka whilst being pissed on by strippers, and it still wouldn't matter...he's guaranteed to get 40% of the vote no matter what. he's their favorite son/clown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) the agricultural industry has been hit hard by the trade war. trump gave them 28 Billion to make up for it. i could note that obama's auto bail out was loans that were entirely paid back, and quickly. this AG bailout is apparently a set of "packages," not "loans." Edited September 20, 2019 by very honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxien Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 8 hours ago, chenGOD said: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ You're right thought, we need to work hard to ensure those rights, and we (again the global we) are often short-sighted in our decision making process. yeah that's a nice list that America, and likely most countries who've signed it, doesn't follow. 11 hours ago, darreichungsform said: I fundamentally disagree. The idea that the system is fair and everyone gets what they deserve (rich people are rich because they perform, poor people are poor because they're losers) is the core of neoliberal ideology which is the cause of many of the problems. Americans do have to work pretty hard for companies so there is little energy left to be politically active (not solely an American problem but a capitalist one). Plus, the 24/7 neoliberal propaganda doesn't help. Not saying all the media is corrupt but there are interests involved, too, and most outlets aren't very reflected about their ideological content. The spread of mental disorders such as depression isn't really empowering people, either. This whole we're bad and don't deserve it because we don't work hard enough self-mortification is a very Protestant way of thinking. And Protestantism is one of the reason this sort of elbow capitalism emerged in the first place, spread to the US and went rampant i think you're conflating my with the one you elaborate on: they're not the same, though perhaps similar in ways. i explain mine a bit more fully in response to Mesh up there. goDel expanding some in ways as well, and your own later response of 'truth is somewhere in the middle' and the rest that chen bolded are very correct. i'm just looking at it from my own darkened perspective, actually living here in one of the poorest states in the US and seeing all the large and small consequences of inaction in nearly everything i do every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebraska Posted September 21, 2019 Author Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) american politics in 147 seconds Edited September 21, 2019 by Nebraska 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 this shit is crazy. so corrupt and petty and typical of trump. with any luck he'll be his own undoing. Senior Adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister: Trump Is ‘Looking for Kompromat’ to Discredit Biden and Avenge Manafort https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/senior-adviser-to-ukraines-interior-minister-trump-is-looking-for-kompromat-to-discredit-biden-and-avenge-manafort/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambermonk Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Jeezus, will we ever go back to civility in politics? Trump and Giuliani are both absolute clowns. It's been said that politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason, but whoever originally said this has not considered volume as a variable for said reason. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, ignatius said: this shit is crazy. so corrupt and petty and typical of trump. with any luck he'll be his own undoing. Senior Adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister: Trump Is ‘Looking for Kompromat’ to Discredit Biden and Avenge Manafort https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/senior-adviser-to-ukraines-interior-minister-trump-is-looking-for-kompromat-to-discredit-biden-and-avenge-manafort/ they can now give him the 3 articles of impeachment nixon got. obstruction of justice, contempt of congress, and abuse of power. Edited September 21, 2019 by very honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubin Farr Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 How has Guliani not been disbarred yet? Maybe NY is just too nervous about disgracing the guy who happened to be mayor on 9/11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 11 hours ago, very honest said: they can now give him the 3 articles of impeachment nixon got. obstruction of justice, contempt of congress, and abuse of power. he and his lawyers are arguing he is above the law.. immune to al prosecution.. he, his business, the people running his business etc are not allowed to be investigated. we're at pretty much full dictator here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prdctvsm Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 “Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.” Yes, he actually said this. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tec Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) Yup, this recent article in the Guardian was pretty good. Edited September 22, 2019 by tec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubin Farr Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 On 9/20/2019 at 4:03 PM, very honest said: the agricultural industry has been hit hard by the trade war. trump gave them 28 Billion to make up for it. i could note that obama's auto bail out was loans that were entirely paid back, and quickly. this AG bailout is apparently a set of "packages," not "loans." Moody's estimates 300,000 US jobs have been lost due to the trade war: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trumps-trade-war-squashed-an-estimated-300000-jobs-so-far-moodys-estimates/?fbclid=IwAR0F8wvOEafLP1UuHJZqhQN3hGCOrUc7demZATxOAN97b43uyNKZ1JVupPk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubin Farr Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 Beware of this group, working to subvert American politics: https://americansforprosperity.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 So, ehm, about that wall... what was the idea again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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