Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[goDel]

4 minutes ago, caze said:

No, it doesn't. The US hasn't been directly targeting civilians. It has been indirectly involved in lots of deaths perpetrated by others, which is not the same thing at all.

Civilian deaths in the region (iraq) by US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

 

also: has iran directly targetted civilians? you mentioned they used proxies, right? do you consider these direct or indirect?

Edited January 3, 2020 by goDel

[Nebraska]

just in time; we've got 3000 troops headed into the middle east right now. good start to the new year

[auxien]

goDel ITT: 

[Squee]

 

[ignatius]

3 hours ago, darreichungsform said:

Iraq is a mostly flat desert land, Afghanistan didn't have a lot of military power and the topography there was already causing lots of troubles. Iran on the other hand is gigantic with lots of mountains and has two competent armies and lots of highly trained people and lots of arms. The sheer size of the country makes an invasion extremely costly. Such a war would drag on for many years and cause lots of deaths on both sides with the current military technology. It's not comparable to the Iraq and Afghanistan war, it would be even more terrible. I guess the game is to weaken Iran's standing in the world even further and cause a regime change. If that doesn't work then maybe there will be weapons that could make this war easier for the US in the future. I'm thinking sort of ultra precise highly specialised drone swarms, like described in this article: https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/drones-of-mass-destruction-drone-swarms-and-the-future-of-nuclear-chemical-and-biological-weapons/

we already changed their regime back in 1953. that went well. ahem.  any war is gonna be shitty regardless of who it's with. it's all a sick joke really. america is fucked.. totally fucked up about this kind of shit and people take as normal because it's happened so many times in the last 30 or 40 years.. "oh, far off country misbehaving and making USA mad.. USA need to go be a reluctant world police now.. but they should know better" is how it gets set up in people's minds. it's fucked. totally fucked. 

anyway... in other news.. 

 

 

[ignatius]

22 minutes ago, goDel said:

Civilian deaths in the region (iraq) by US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

 

also: has iran directly targetted civilians? you mentioned they used proxies, right? do you consider these direct or indirect?

we've littered iraq w/uranium depleted rounds since the 90s.. causing all kinds of birth defects and abnormalities in children. it's made the news a few times in the last 20 years but is largely ignored now. 

that dude who trump pardoned.. the navy seal.. his own team outed him because he was a fucking psychopath who was just sniping people all the time. they actually fucked with his weapons (scope etc) so they wouldn't be accurate as a way to try and curb his killing of innocents.  just one example.. but we've sent the best and the worst into wars. it's always chaos and always innocent civilians get caught in the middle. 

[goDel]

Yeah. Incomprehensible to label Iran is a big "booman" in the middle east and leave the US out of the equation. Western propaganda seems to work wonders, i guess.

[Braintree]

14 minutes ago, Nebraska said:

just in time; we've got 3000 troops headed into the middle east right now. good start to the new year

It's a sad day when Geraldo is the voice of reason.

[Limo]

1 hour ago, caze said:

Iran is also directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Yemen.

Citation needed. Indirectly, yes, but directly?

[ambermonk]

Perhaps this is a "damned if we did, damned if we didn't" scenario with taking out Soleimani. But Trump just kicked the hornet's nest with this move as far as I'm concerned. I guess escalation was inevitable the moment we pulled out of the nuclear deal. 

I fear for the ramifications not just in the Middle East, but domestically. Wouldn't surprise me if right-wing propaganda outlets like FOX News ramp up their hawk rhetoric. They'll come up with some bullshit like "if you're anti-war, then you're anti-American." I wouldn't rule out Trump trying to impose martial law later in the year at some point, depending on how impeachment proceedings and this election cycle unfold. This is the closest we've ever come to fascism at least in my lifetime.

[ignatius]

a bunch of evangelicals used all kinds of 'logic' to try and justify invading iraq in the 90s.. "should we invade because he's a dictator who gassed his own people.. or should we in vade because... as americans we care about human rights..." etc etc.. it's bullshit. especially when it's pointed out that if we cared about human rights we'd have invaded china and a dozen other places but it's not a priority and this has nothing to do w/how bad or good the leaders are or what they're doing in they're region of the world.. it's all about what some people at the top in america want to do and that's about it. period. 

[caze]

7 minutes ago, ignatius said:

we've littered iraq w/uranium depleted rounds since the 90s.. causing all kinds of birth defects and abnormalities in children. it's made the news a few times in the last 20 years but is largely ignored now. 

there's no real evidence of birth defects caused by depleted uranium in Iraq. birth defects and general health problems always increase in conflict zones, for a variety of reasons, it's very difficult to figure out exactly what causes what.

 

45 minutes ago, goDel said:

Civilian deaths in the region (iraq) by US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

From your own source the numbers/methodology used are hotly disputed, and even if you accept the dodgy numbers the great majority of them were caused by sectarian conflict, not US activities.

47 minutes ago, goDel said:

has iran directly targetted civilians? you mentioned they used proxies, right? do you consider these direct or indirect?

Iran's proxies were under the direct command of the Suleimani. They have engaged in non-targeted area bombing and shelling in Syria and Yemen, they also regularly target hospitals and schools, and regularly murder civilian protesters (with a big escalation of that in recent months in Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon).

[zero]

1 hour ago, goDel said:

Wedit: and note that the US acted - as far as i can tell - without congress' approval, or international allies' support!

thank that brilliant orange fruitcake behind the wheel

I know it certainly seems like this act was just another rash, impromptu, thoughtless decision from the man child, but surely there must be some adults left in the room with him, right? I mean someone put this right in front of him, and there has to be military strategy planned out for a response? I can't imagine that it came down to a round table discussion, with top generals starring over at his orange stained face, waiting for the boy king to mumble out nonsense that was interpreted as the go-ahead.

and I think pompeo said something about discussing this first with allies, but you never know since he's on team donnie...so then 100% full of shit. I did read that Nancy and the dems were left in the dark on it, which makes sense since they would have only meddled in the dictator's plan. 

[goDel]

20 minutes ago, ambergonk said:

Wouldn't surprise me if right-wing propaganda outlets like FOX News ramp up their hawk rhetoric. They'll come up with some bullshit like "if you're anti-war, then you're anti-American." I wouldn't rule out Trump trying to impose martial law later in the year at some point, depending on how impeachment proceedings and this election cycle unfold. This is the closest we've ever come to fascism at least in my lifetime.

Even though some of that might happen, I don't think it will reach the level of the post 911 nonsense when everyone in the country was up in arms. The lead up is completely different. And Trumps agenda - why he was put in charge - was arguably about pulling the troops out and go "America First" for a bit. I don't expect the typical Trump supporter to support starting new wars. Rather the opposite. And my guess is that many Trump supporters supported him with the confidence there'd be enough adults in the room to keep him from pushing the proverbial "nuke world"  button. They'd consider those scenario's anti-trump fantasies of leftists.

[goDel]

3 minutes ago, zero said:

and I think pompeo said something about discussing this first with allies, but you never know since he's on team donnie...so then 100% full of shit. I did read that Nancy and the dems were left in the dark on it, which makes sense since they would have only meddled in the dictator's plan. 

 

There's a notable difference between "discussing this first with allies" and "coming to an agreement with allies". Or rather "gaining the support of the allies"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/03/qassem-suleimani-killing-may-spell-end-iran-nuclear-deal-europe-fears

Quote

The US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, said he consulted on Friday with his German, British and Chinese counterparts about the strike, seeking to reassure them that the US was seeking to de-escalate the crisis.

The German foreign minister, Heiko Maas, was the most critical of the European voices, stressing he had told Pompeo that Germany expected US restraint. Maas tweeted: “The US military operation followed a series of dangerous provocations by Iran. However, this action has not made it easier to reduce tensions. I made this point clearly to Pompeo as well.”

 

[ignatius]

23 minutes ago, caze said:

there's no real evidence of birth defects caused by depleted uranium in Iraq. birth defects and general health problems always increase in conflict zones, for a variety of reasons, it's very difficult to figure out exactly what causes what.

 

 

hmm.. perhaps it's dubious.. but

https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-and-radioactive-contamination-in-iraq-an-overview/5605215

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/oct/13/world-health-organisation-iraq-war-depleted-uranium

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/depleted-uranium-blame-iraqi-birth-defects

Quote

Now in Fallujah, Iraq, the site of two rounds of intense fighting and bombing raids by U.S. forces in March and April 2004, a University of Michigan study (<-warning: not for faint of heart) funded by the World Health Organization has uncovered "staggering" increases in sometimes bizarre birth defects—babies born with brains and other organs outside their bodies—according to a report in Britain's Independent. The study found that in Fallujah, more than half of all babies born between 2007 and 2010 suffered some kind of birth defect. "Before the siege, this figure was more like one in 10."

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2019/09/21/new-study-documents-depleted-uranium-impacts-on-children-in-iraq/

 

[dingformung]

Contaminating opponents with radio active material is common praxis. The Stasi did it here in Germany until 30 years ago, which despite having existed within a different regime is in direct tradition to the Nazis a lot of which were employed by American secret services. It's an old trick with a long tradition.

[caze]

 

25 minutes ago, ignatius said:

hmm.. perhaps it's dubious.. but...

globalresearch.ca is not a credible source, it's like a lefty version of infowars.

there is evidence of increased birth defects, but there is not evidence they have been caused by DU. nobody knows where it was used exactly, aside from the military and they're not saying; and attempts to find evidence in soil samples hasn't been successful. heavy metal poisoning in general, from regular munitions, are a more likely explanation.

[Lada Laika]

[ambermonk]

Yeah it's more than half

[caze]

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/middle-east/2020/01/qasem-soleimani-brutalised-middle-east-bloodshed-far-over

Quote

But the most defining legacy in the Middle East of the man who ran Tehran’s insurgency against US forces in Iraq was not the deaths of hundreds of US service members, nor the wave of political assassinations he masterminded throughout the last two decades. Soleimani made his mark through his unrestrained barbarity towards civilians in Syria and Iraq, and he was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. These include the hundreds of Iraqi civilians who were shot dead by Iraqi security forces within the last three months, acting directly under his orders.

Soleimani was brutal, merciless, and ruthlessly efficient at his trade, slaughtering his way across the Middle East in the pursuit of regional hegemony. If he could not bulldoze his way through civilian infrastructure, he had a near endless supply of impoverished, forcibly recruited Shia conscripts from Afghanistan and Pakistan that he could send over the trenches in World War One-like human wave attacks until all resistance was broken, their lives apparently as cheap to him as the lives of the civilian protest movements he crushed.

It is little surprise to see social media videos of Iraqi protesters dancing in the streets of Baghdad last night in jubilation at the news that the man who had butchered hundreds of their brethren was dead. Nor was it surprising to see the celebrations in Idlib, Syria, home to 3 million people, the vast majority of them refugees from Aleppo, Douma, Darayya, Madaya, Homs, Hama, Daraa and every other city and town Soleimani had brutalised, besieged and starved before their forced displacement.

 

[Rubin Farr]

 

[Rubin Farr]

 

[Zephyr_Nova]

God, what a slime-bag.

[ambermonk]

I just realized there won't be a WWIII after all because Trump doesn't have any allies left lol