Cryptocurrency as the next significant stage for computing technology, not just an investment

[triachus]

 

I havent even figured out how normal money works

 

[YangYing]

 

 

I havent even figured out how normal money works

[zkom]

Here was a quite good article on the whole blockchain and cryptocurrency bullshit: https://hackernoon.com/ten-years-in-nobody-has-come-up-with-a-use-case-for-blockchain-ee98c180100

 

As for the investment point - if you live in a first world country with a decent government you probably don't "need" cryptocurrency and that's why you don't understand it.  But if you live in Venezuela or Zimbabwe where the government printed "trillions" of dollars worth of worthless paper money, inflated it so much that you literally have to carry duffel bags of fiat currency around to buy anything with, then you will realize how important access to a global financial system is for humanity as a whole.  The video above mentions this exact point and goes into further detail regarding the fact that the majority of people in the world, people who aren't privileged like us sitting here capable of shitposting online, literally have no access to bank accounts - and cryptocurrencies will give them access with a smart phone app, requiring no permission from central authorities authorizing them to have a bank account

 

These people usually don't have smartphones either to run the apps.. If the local currency is worthless people just switch to using foreign currencies, usually USD or Euro. You can even select the currency in the ATMs in some places I've been to (Ukraine comes to mind). And there's money transfer services everywhere in the poorer countries where you take your cash to some kiosk or grocery store or whatever and the receiver can just pick it up from a similar place. No need for smartphones running apps or an internet connection which might cost more than the person makes.

[zlemflolia]

That's not true at all, even shit tier African countries have widespread use of smart phones and data plans.  They actually skipped the normal telephone lines and cable internet phase and went straight to wireless because it's much cheaper, which is astounding but expected.  

 

The most important thing to note here is that the use of cryptocurrencies requires extremely small amounts of bandwidth, and in fact you can even have massive latencies and basically the shittiest internet connection ever and still be fine.  

 

In these countries, stable currencies are not in widespread use and sometimes illegal.  You're thinking of an idealistic scenario - Ukraine is much more first world than the places I'm talking about

 

https://qz.com/748354/smartphone-use-has-more-than-doubled-in-africa-in-two-years/

Edited January 6, 2018 by Zeffolia

[zlemflolia]

Furthermore and most important, cash based foreign currency exchanges tend to be predatory and charge extremely high fees, I'd assume even moreso in areas where such currencies are in high demand over the local inflating currency, acquiring an even larger premium.

 

The point of cryptocurrencies is to give anyone access to a GLOBAL money changing network where arbitration is done at the global level instead of at the inter-country border level, completely eliminating inefficiencies that predatory money changing merchants try to exploit.  The goal is to eliminate fiat almost completely

 

Is it mature yet?  No.  But it will be, don't fool yourself.  People were saying the internet would transform the world in this way when it was created, and they were called crazy, but it took decades for this to happen, now it's unstoppable

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Zeffolia

[zkom]

That's not true at all, even shit tier African countries have widespread use of smart phones and data plans.  They actually skipped the normal telephone lines and cable internet phase and went straight to wireless because it's much cheaper, which is astounding but expected.  

 

The most important thing to note here is that the use of cryptocurrencies requires extremely small amounts of bandwidth, and in fact you can even have massive latencies and basically the shittiest internet connection ever and still be fine.  

 

In these countries, stable currencies are not in widespread use and sometimes illegal.  You're thinking of an idealistic scenario - Ukraine is much more first world than the places I'm talking about

 

https://qz.com/748354/smartphone-use-has-more-than-doubled-in-africa-in-two-years/

 

Ok, my experiences about Africa are only from Madagascar (which really isn't Africa if you ask the locals at least), where 50% of the people are living with less than a 1USD per day. Of course I saw people even with tablet PCs but mostly everybody was using regular phones, if they had even that. And that was in the developed cities because I really didn't travel that deep to the countryside where there are no roads or electricity. If you make less than a dollar per day, it's pretty impossible to have a smartphone with data connection. Quickly checking there are 1.3 billion people worldwide that live with less than 1.25USD per day. I pretty much doubt that they are able to use the internet in a manner that they could make daily payments.

 

I may be traveling to mainland Africa later this year. Perhaps I can see if there's any smartphone revolution going on. :) That would be a good thing.

 

But personally I don't believe that cryptocurrencies will be widely adopted for anything else except currency speculation and internet black markets. Just my gut feeling when I look at what's going on.. I'm not really interested in the whole thing tbh.

[zlemflolia]

Actually one of the first precursors to cryptocurrencies that were actually used in the real world started in Kenya called m-pesa which is basically phone talk minutes which you can trade with other people, and people started using it as a currency because it's really convenient, then when the phone company caught on they re-marketed it as an actual currency.  It's now like the dominant currency in Kenya and the largest business or something of that magnitude.  So for sure cryptocurrencies will displace this because they are superior technically to m-pesa which is 100% centralized and provided by a business as a service

[YangYing]

or maybe a particularly large sun flare kills us all tomorrow

 

as with most things time will tell, is definetly an interesting development but at this point all of this feels like rather pointless speculation (to me)

[sweepstakes]

m-pesa which is basically phone talk minutes which you can trade with other people, and people started using it as a currency because it's really convenient, then when the phone company caught on they re-marketed it as an actual currency. It's now like the dominant currency in Kenya and the largest business or something of that magnitude.

This is the coolest thing in this thread by far.

[zkom]

or maybe a particularly large sun flare kills us all tomorrow

 

as with most things time will tell, is definetly an interesting development but at this point all of this feels like rather pointless speculation (to me)

 

I feel that, like with some other inventions, it might take a decade or two to have mainstream use cases for cryptocurrencies. Like cell phones and internet existed for a long long time before they hit the mainstream. If the cryptocurrencies hit the mainstream the current currencies might have been long forgotten as failed experiments and how the currencies are used might be something that we can't even foresee now.

[Bechuga]

I think it's a great thing to have choice with money, that we can use both real money and the digital currencies. More options never hurt nobody (apart from indecisive people).

[YangYing]

man, what happened to the zeff who posted about misandry? that was way more entretaining

[Braintree]

My opinion on the issue provided by The Onion: Bitcoin On Path To Functioning Like Real Currency After Small Concentration of People Acquire Majority Of It.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

man, what happened to the zeff who posted about misandry? that was way more entretaining

it all started when a girl tried to steal his semen as if it was some kinda currency

[Bechuga]

NutCoin

[YangYing]

lol

[Braintree]

lol

[KovalainenFanBoy]

NutCoin

turns out this exists already https://coinmarketcap.com/es/currencies/nutcoin/

[chenGOD]

 

m-pesa which is basically phone talk minutes which you can trade with other people, and people started using it as a currency because it's really convenient, then when the phone company caught on they re-marketed it as an actual currency. It's now like the dominant currency in Kenya and the largest business or something of that magnitude.

This is the coolest thing in this thread by far.

 

 

It's also wildly inaccurate. M-Pesa is a payment processing platform, that allows people to use their mobile phones to do all kinds of financially related activities, using the Kenyan shilling.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/21/africa/mpesa-10th-anniversary/index.html

 

It was also launched before Bitcoin was invented (or at least publicly announced), as M-Pesa came into being in 2007.

[sweepstakes]

Oh lol. Well fuck this thread then.

[zlemflolia]

 

 

m-pesa which is basically phone talk minutes which you can trade with other people, and people started using it as a currency because it's really convenient, then when the phone company caught on they re-marketed it as an actual currency. It's now like the dominant currency in Kenya and the largest business or something of that magnitude.

This is the coolest thing in this thread by far.

 

 

It's also wildly inaccurate. M-Pesa is a payment processing platform, that allows people to use their mobile phones to do all kinds of financially related activities, using the Kenyan shilling.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/21/africa/mpesa-10th-anniversary/index.html

 

It was also launched before Bitcoin was invented (or at least publicly announced), as M-Pesa came into being in 2007.

 

 

...Wildly inaccurate?  Those articles confirm everything I said.  And it's nothing like Bitcoin it's a completely centralized service offered by companies.

[manmower]

I vaguely remember when telephone cards (the credit card sized ones, this was probably 20 years ago) were known to be used as currency. In prisons.

[zlemflolia]

man, what happened to the zeff who posted about misandry? that was way more entretaining

 

This website has proven to not be friendly to statistics and facts that contradict its worldview, so I don't talk about it here anymore.

[YangYing]

 

man, what happened to the zeff who posted about misandry? that was way more entretaining

 

 

This website has proven to not be friendly to statistics and facts that contradict its worldview, so I don't talk about it here anymore.

aye man, I just like to stirr things up a bit.. carry on

[chenGOD]

 

 

 

 

As for the investment point - if you live in a first world country with a decent government you probably don't "need" cryptocurrency and that's why you don't understand it. But if you live in Venezuela or Zimbabwe where the government printed "trillions" of dollars worth of worthless paper money, inflated it so much that you literally have to carry duffel bags of fiat currency around to buy anything with, then you will realize how important access to a global financial system is for humanity as a whole. The video above mentions this exact point and goes into further detail regarding the fact that the majority of people in the world, people who aren't privileged like us sitting here capable of shitposting online, literally have no access to bank accounts - and cryptocurrencies will give them access with a smart phone app, requiring no permission from central authorities authorizing them to have a bank account

If their money is worthless, how are they buying bitcoin?

And if there are no central authorities authorizing anyone, why do you have to do KYC to get in on ICOs and exchanges? (Ignoring the DEXs for now, those that currently exist suck donkey balls, and liquidity issues are always going to be a problem)

 

What will happen Is governments will create their own digital currencies, banks will use permissioned block chains, and even more oversight over personal finances will be exerted by regulators.

 

I’m good though, I made a bunch of cash off my “investments”.

It's not "worthless" it's just worthless in comparison to the fiat denominations used - trillions of dollars to buy loaves of bread. And they cannot hold it for extended periods of time because it is continually being devalued.

 

The situation right now with centralized exchanges is simply a growing pain we are moving through. Things like localbitcoins help sidestep that, and the situation will get better as time moves on.

 

Governments will indeed create their own digital currencies (Putin is planning to), banks will indeed create permissions block chains (Ripple), but nobody who understands will choose to use it. If people want to they will, if they don't want to they won't. Privacy coins like monero sidestep all regulation

 

And it's nice to see that you view this technology as an "investment" instead of a technology and social revolution

Monetize is a giant pain in the ass to use.

 

I like Ethereum and smart contracts, I believe that’s where the real value in all of this lies. Transparent, trustless contracts will enable a new realm of business opportunities.

 

All this whining about “muh taxes” is ridiculous nonsense. You live in a first world country because your taxes provide infrastructure, governance, regulation, and stability.

Since the entryway to BTC is through fiat, and the Venezuelan fiat is worthless, how are they buying BTC?

 

And again, BTC forks literally created free money (if you hold BTC, you get the forked coin).

And speaking of Tx times/fees, what’s the average BTC Tx time and fee?

 

 

1. I'm not wining about muh taxes, I am a liberal who votes for higher taxes against myself.  I'm simply pointing out a fact which you've conveniently ignored - the tax situation has nothing to do with crypto and everything to do with the, well, only the tax situation

 

2. Did you not understand what I said about Venezuelan fiat?  It's not worthless, you just need large quantities of it to buy anything because the denominations are off, and it's experiencing hyper inflation

 

2(a) I have no fucking idea where they're buying it, but once again that's irrelevant because I'm not even talking about the situation as it stands right now, I'm talking about how things will be once the technologies mature.

 

3. BTC forks do not create free money unless someone values the altcoin enough to buy it.  Look at the countless BTC forks that are worthless.  I can make a BTC fork right now and it would be worthless because nobody would buy it.  People can create altcoins - that doesn't mean BTC itself is being inflated because there is only one BTC

 

4. And if you're getting free money valued in inflationary fiat in the form of extra altcoins after a fork, that's literally the opposite of creating a larger quantity of fiat and devaluing existing fiat because fiat holders do not get a boost in their fiat stashes like crypto holders during crypto forks do.  It's the exact opposite thing.  I think you're confusing denomination, supply, and value.

 

 

I'll answer these in order.

1. What tax situation are you talking about?

 

2. Yes the bolivar is suffering from hyper-inflation which makes it effectively worthless. Semantics do not make a good argument.

 

2(a). They (Venezuelans) cannot effectively buy BTC because their currency is effectively worthless. Since there are very few on-ramp options except fiat to BTC or ETH, they cannot purchase it, as a bolivar trades at 3000 to $1 USD, and average monthly income in Venezuela is $20, using black market exchange rates. You might be talking about when technologies when they mature, but that's of little comfort to Venezuelans right now.

 

3. Both Bitcoin Cash (BCH) and Bitcoin Gold (BTG) are in the top 20 cryptos, along with BTC itself. Because one received BCH and BTG simply because one held BTC, this is literally the definition of creating something out of nothing. And while I'm not aware of any online vendors (legit, I don't use DarkWeb marketplaces) that accept either BCH or BTG, if one did, then again, free money has been created (if we define money through its main functions as a medium of exchange, a store of value, and a unit of account).

 

4. It's not devaluing existing fiat (a loaf of bread costs the same in USD regardless of how many BTC forks there are), it's providing opportunity to sell a newly created token for existing fiat. And thank you for saying that crypto holders get a boost in their fiat stashes - that's the most honest thing you've said so far.

 

Look, I quite like a lot of the tech that is coming out of this - as I've said before, Ethereum and smart contracts are very exciting and will provide the base for internet 3.0. Payment processors like OMG and Everex will change how money flows across the world. There are a lot of other exciting projects being developed on blockchains (and subsets thereof). But cryptocurrencies are not going to replace government backed currencies, because people enjoy stability and security from these.

 

There was conversation earlier in the topic about what gives something value. The US dollar is backed by the full force of the government, which provides value. Same goes for all other first-world countries (and a lot of "third-world" countries too). And while the total value of the crypto market stands at $825 Billion, which seems impressive, it really pales in comparison to just traditional stock markets, which is somewhere around $73 Trillion. And that's not counting derivatives, which I think are a giant house of cards anyway, and should be illegal (a conversation for a different day). And until crypto currencies gain that backing and/or the regulation that occurs now in the stock markets, they will not replace government backed money, nor will they ever really be a really viable option for people looking to invest for their future.

 

 

 

m-pesa which is basically phone talk minutes which you can trade with other people, and people started using it as a currency because it's really convenient, then when the phone company caught on they re-marketed it as an actual currency. It's now like the dominant currency in Kenya and the largest business or something of that magnitude.

This is the coolest thing in this thread by far.

 

 

It's also wildly inaccurate. M-Pesa is a payment processing platform, that allows people to use their mobile phones to do all kinds of financially related activities, using the Kenyan shilling.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/21/africa/mpesa-10th-anniversary/index.html

 

It was also launched before Bitcoin was invented (or at least publicly announced), as M-Pesa came into being in 2007.

 

 

...Wildly inaccurate?  Those articles confirm everything I said.  And it's nothing like Bitcoin it's a completely centralized service offered by companies.

 

 

It's not a currency, nor is it the dominant currency in Kenya. It's a payment processor. So it's wildly inaccurate in that sense. I only brought up Bitcoin in case people thought it had something to do with either that or blockchain technology - it doesn't.