zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) Edited March 30, 2021 by cyanobacteria 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Braintree said: indeed the communist party of china, constituted by many millions of chinese people. let's contrast this to privately owned capitalist media Edited March 30, 2021 by cyanobacteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said: indeed the communist party of china, constituted by many millions of chinese people. let's contrast this to privately owned capitalist media Pas du tout étonnés de ne se trouver pas du tout ensemble. The West engages in anti Chinese propaganda that has a whiff of racism about it. The Chinese government is extremely harsh and brutal. Both of these things can be - and are - true at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 4 hours ago, cyanobacteria said: indeed the communist party of china, constituted by many millions of chinese people. let's contrast this to privately owned capitalist media lol you have no idea how the CCP works. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 8 hours ago, cyanobacteria said: indeed the communist party of china, constituted by many millions of chinese people. let's contrast this to privately owned capitalist media It's state-run media and biased. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxien Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 12 hours ago, chenGOD said: Where does the US round up members of an ethnic minority en masse in attempts to “re-educate” them and force sterilization on them? i’m sure not siding with Zeff but the US was definitely doing some forced sterilization to women immigrants at the southern borders last year. i don’t think it was terribly widespread, but iirc there were reports of dozens/hundreds of incidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 26 minutes ago, Braintree said: It's state-run media and biased. and is sooooo transparent. i mean.. it's one step away from being an SNL skit. "She worked on her mandarin and now is a real estate agent". it's practically a self help commercial "read my book and you'll be a millionaire!" jesus. wtf. if one thinks for 5 seconds about what he says... "worked on her mandarin" = stripping away her own culture to make her more mainland chinese appropriate. and do they mention why she went to the re-education center? no.. because she was forced to go there.. it's not like she's taking summer classes at the local university to gain new skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Just now, auxien said: i’m sure not siding with Zeff but the US was definitely doing some forced sterilization to women immigrants at the southern borders last year. i don’t think it was terribly widespread, but iirc there were reports of dozens/hundreds of incidents. US did a bunch of evil shit and sometimes a lot more recent than anyone realizes. native american women have a story to tell about this. pretty much everything around native american relations since white europeans people first set foot on this continent is a fucking tragedy. so, hundreds of years. genocide etc. long before america was a country the "savages" have been under the thumb of white supremacist catholic assholes. no doubt. do we need to go around the room and talk about chinese history too? cultural revolutions? tibet? or can we just say there's no justification for putting people in camps and subjecting them to culture stripping re-education to force them assimilate? whataboutism can go on indefinitely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 just dont wana be falling for US anticommunist tactics and their false concern over muslims rings hollow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Zeff I think you need a career change. these guys are hiring: https://www.cia.gov/careers/jobs/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 disGUSTING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 i hear these guys are hiring too 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, auxien said: i’m sure not siding with Zeff but the US was definitely doing some forced sterilization to women immigrants at the southern borders last year. i don’t think it was terribly widespread, but iirc there were reports of dozens/hundreds of incidents. Sure - I guess the difference of course is that there is internal pressure and reporting in the US that may be effective in reversing that. 1 hour ago, ignatius said: US did a bunch of evil shit and sometimes a lot more recent than anyone realizes. native american women have a story to tell about this. pretty much everything around native american relations since white europeans people first set foot on this continent is a fucking tragedy. so, hundreds of years. genocide etc. long before america was a country the "savages" have been under the thumb of white supremacist catholic assholes. no doubt. do we need to go around the room and talk about chinese history too? cultural revolutions? tibet? or can we just say there's no justification for putting people in camps and subjecting them to culture stripping re-education to force them assimilate? whataboutism can go on indefinitely. You'd think so but... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Mmmm democracy hard at work in Hong Kong: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3127563/sweeping-changes-hong-kongs-electoral-system-approved 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said: just dont wana be falling for US anticommunist tactics and their false concern over muslims rings hollow there's a million hairs to split w/this statement. communism is a trigger word essentially. china isn't communist except in name really. let's assume china and america and every country really.. put up a facade for people then create arguments based on the facade to justify whatever their goals are. it's not just america that is expressing outrage over chinese prison camps for uyghurs.. and it's true.. US gov't doesn't give a shit about human rights in other countries until it's convenient or can be used as an excuse to justify invasion.. that's not to say there aren't lot's of people working really hard in the state dept and other places to shine a light on those abuses and get people to pay attention and do something about them. china is a complicated problem for america and the world. they're intertwined deeply in world economy and have modernized quickly and become a powerful force in every arena. how do you change behavior of such a place? a place w/total control, totalitarian gov't, nuclear arsenal, etc etc.. are there people in gov't in different places who have agendas for different parts of the world? yeah.. of course.. the committee to liberate iran probably still exists. there's probably some demented war hawk types angling for conflict with china or iran or russia or saudi etc etc.. there's a constant power struggle going on in the federal gov't. all this isn't to say that china doesn't have the same kinds of internal struggles. could be? anyway.. whatever.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxien Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, ignatius said: do we need to go around the room and talk about chinese history too? cultural revolutions? tibet? or can we just say there's no justification for putting people in camps and subjecting them to culture stripping re-education to force them assimilate? whataboutism can go on indefinitely. of course...i'm sure not trying to whatabout anything. China is evil, the US is evil as well, in different ways. maybe one is 'worse' or 'better' but that's for each individual (and history) to decide. was just pointing this out since chen specifically asked if the US was doing forced sterilization re: the Chinese doing what they're doing to the Uighur population....and the US is, or at least was as recently as mere months ago. not as much, but even 1 person discriminated against and forcibly destroyed in such a human, personal, and life-changing way is horrid. basically i've called out Zeff's incorrect points dozens of times, it's only fair to back up a point he's making if it's in some way valid/relevant to the convo. 56 minutes ago, chenGOD said: Sure - I guess the difference of course is that there is internal pressure and reporting in the US that may be effective in reversing that. yeah, that's something, maybe. the US is surely no shining beacon of honor and freedom (not that you were implying that in the least) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 re: whataboutism.. not directing that at anyone in particular.. just in general.. if we go down that route we'll be looking at the entire history of nation states and humans and we shouldn't have to do that when looking at what is obviously some shitty situation in china or wherever in regards to human rights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) the US would love the literal collapse of China because it represents a final collapse of socialism for this generation. is china communist? this isn't a question that's well formed. of course it's not communist in that it does not use a communist mode of production - that's a very advanced form and nobody has achieved it. are they socialist? of course they have not achieved socialism - worker control of the means of production. but it is the stated goal of their government, to achieve it by 2050, unlike almost everywhere else. they are communist in that they are led by their communist party, whose goal, according to Marx, is to do what is required to achieve communism. the US doesn't even want to bother trying and is in fact a reactionary force trying to prevent attempts at socialism china's superior handling of COVID19 and its rising economy suggets an existential threat to global capitalist hegemony, and they don't want this. they would rather go to war with and destroy china's material conditions than let them "win" this imaginary and not-so-imaginary (to the bourgeoisie who wants to maintain power) power struggle between economic systems i have no doubt there are bad things happening. but they are overexaggerated by capitalist press, there is no doubt about that. and to mindlessly eat it all up is to fall for US and NATO anti-communist propaganda. it's anti-communist because it's aiming to oppose the threat of communism, not oppose a nation which has legitimately achieved communism, which China hasn't. they US doesn't want them to. they don't want the workesr of china to have control of the means of production and achieve communism, a stateless classless society. they don't want every citizen of china capable of defending socialism and communism. how is the state abolished to achieve communism? what is the state under capitalism? a tool of class oppression of the bourgeoisie against the proletariat. what is the state under socialism? a tool of class oppression of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie. what is the state under communism? withered away, because there is no more bourgoeoisie to oppress, because the legitimate and important managerial and economic roles they fill under capitalism have been made obsolete, they have been made unemployed like horse drawn carriage drivers. that's not to say new contradictions won't arise of party beaurocracy and technocratic elites against the masses, or even humanity against technologicla machienes themselves, but those will be faced when the time comes. the US does NOT want china to prove that the bourgeoisie is not needed and that their "job" or place within the economy can be obsoleted away through cybernetic systems and distributyed direct democracy - through socialism and communism. they want to maintain capitalist realism. i will always counter anti-communist propaganda the US will literally bomb china before they let them achieve communism and pose a threat to US petrodollar hegemony, China is preparing itself to defend itself, it's not surprising, it makes sense Edited March 30, 2021 by cyanobacteria 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcofribas Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 woah sick China is gonna do Marxism by 2050 nice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Alcofribas said: woah sick China is gonna do Marxism by 2050 nice who knows if they will, and it's so far away it feels hopeless. but who knows, they could do it sooner. they meet their climate change agreements sooner than their typical plans. china actually has plans unlike the US. what is the US's plan? maintain the status quo at all costs. what is china's plan? socialism by 2050. that's fucking based and they are already doing marxism. many of their universities offer degrees in marxism. Edited March 30, 2021 by cyanobacteria 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 when I see proletarians defending the bourgeoisie I am ashamed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 36 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said: its rising economy China is a capitalist economy. The only thing the US fears about it is that their corporations won’t be the ones doing all the heavy lifting. The rest of your blather about “being led by a communist party” is just that, blather. 28 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said: when I see proletarians defending the bourgeoisie I am ashamed Frankly, your apologist attitude to a brutal authoritarian regime that routinely jails journalists who dare to question their abuses (be they human rights, environmental, or otherwise) is sickening. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxien Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 minute ago, chenGOD said: China is a capitalist economy. The only thing the US fears about it is that their corporations won’t be the ones doing all the heavy lifting. The rest of your blather about “being led by a communist party” is just that, blather. thanks for saying exactly what i was going to say, you saved me the trouble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) "china is capiutalist" "china is socialist" "china is communist" is liberal idealism. relations of production are not willed by sheer thought alone but by changing the material conditions, which china is working on doing. it has not had centuries of headstart building on top of slavery and imperialism like the US. yet somehow they avoid starting tons of wars. interesting there are 1.4 billion people in china. bad stuff is going to happen. the US does all of this shit i don't see the "hating on america" thread I rather see the "tons of liberals loving biden" thread china uses capitalism to improve the means of production and improve material relations. they are led by the communist party. once capitalism is no longer needed, if they succeed, they will start phasing out capitalism. this is why things like jack ma being controlled by the state rather than the state controlling him are so optimistic Edited March 30, 2021 by cyanobacteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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