Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[usagi]

33 minutes ago, Satans Little Helper said:

My conclusion: there’s a good reason I try to keep myself from taking part in discussions such as these. It makes me feel and look stupid. But more importantly, to me looks like a giant “moral outrage” porn gangbang. And I feel dirty and dumb by posting this. 

[not personally directed]

what you're describing is a part of the prevailing and growing tendency amongst people to dissociate from any complex issues that are perceived to be outside their zone of interest. insularity, in a word. that is what creates that 'wrong' feeling when you step outside of your bubble to think/speak about something that isn't normally in your social or cultural wheelhouse. it's not because there's something inherently wrong with doing so. obviously, there is always a need to use good judgement about when & how to speak, not just because you like the sound of your own voice, and you should spend the time to understand the issue beforehand. but all of those things being equal, it's the low road to say/do nothing, not the high one.

the apathetic/ironic/anti-moralist responses are all one big mental defense mechanism to spare people the shame of ignoring festering problems that affect us all (and this conflict does affect us all, it has directly caused/shaped the post-9/11 world we live in). it's understandable sometimes, I mean it's very easy to succumb to helplessness or look away for the sake of preserving a shred of sanity. but we're not excused. I think it's telling that the young are more willing to speak up on this and many other issues like climate, ecocide, inequality, etc. they haven't been completely poisoned by irony yet and they will bear the brunt of our failures in the decades to come.

[decibal cooper]

Big protest in London this weekend calling for ceasefire - looks like there were large groups of people from other places in Britain too, saw people holding a big sign representing Bristol in this video.

big protests all over the world, here in Sanaa in Yemen

3000 people protested and made a Palestine flag with colored placards in Spain

There were protests in Los Angeles as well, not as big as any of these, but they were directed at President Biden, who is visiting Los Angeles to do fundraising for his reelection presidential campaign this year.

7 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

And the US? Well, I guess their opposition could mean there is some validity to Israels objections. Or they think so. 
Does it matter that most other nations did support it? Yes and no. Why no? Because it would have been obvious US would veto, I assume. So at that point the vote had become political symbolism. Meaning: a vote to show broad support for a ceasefire. Any ceasefire. Regardless of the conditions. Even if those conditions weren’t good.

It’s an important issue. I hope it gets resolved soon. Hopefully others have more interesting things to say. Ill gladly take the hit if it is at my expense 

Feel like you make an important point here about how the UN incident is symbolic. This was a draft resolution calling for ceasefire and unconditional release of hostages, the very first step to some kind of political or diplomatic settlement (which will probably involve commitments and concrete action by the Arab countries that surround Israel in support of people of Gaza). The UN can (and most likely will) be an important institution for whatever happens after the war (and in other conflicts around the globe), and it is a place where all of the countries can come together and have public and private dialogue. The vote bodes ill, though, because it shows imo that America is not putting forth a good faith effort to utilize these global institutions in a way that fosters peace or security, they just want a continuation of war, and the Israel war cabinet and US support for Israel is driving US policy/action it seems. I would love to be able to read the native languages and check out the journalism in the 13 countries that voted in favor of the ceasefire. I bet a lot of government officials and people are concerned that the current situation in Israel and Palestine can easily spread to other countries and become a wider, more violent conflict, one that further exacerbates - or at the very least does not advance - economic conditions around the globe while enriching a select few, bomb-makers and insurancers etc. at the top of the list.

Also, speaking to your last point, I do not think you should worry about having to "take a hit" when posting or talking about a topic. Talking about things in good faith and sharing views/debating can't hurt but can potentially help.

[usagi]

18 minutes ago, decibal cooper said:

The vote bodes ill, though, because it shows imo that America is not putting forth a good faith effort to utilize these global institutions in a way that fosters peace or security, they just want a continuation of war, and the Israel war cabinet and US support for Israel is driving US policy/action it seems.

source

yeah, Biden's so cool. definitely the best the US has to offer rn.

[Satans Little Helper]

2 hours ago, usagi said:

[not personally directed]

what you're describing is a part of the prevailing and growing tendency amongst people to dissociate from any complex issues that are perceived to be outside their zone of interest. insularity, in a word. that is what creates that 'wrong' feeling when you step outside of your bubble to think/speak about something that isn't normally in your social or cultural wheelhouse. it's not because there's something inherently wrong with doing so. obviously, there is always a need to use good judgement about when & how to speak, not just because you like the sound of your own voice, and you should spend the time to understand the issue beforehand. but all of those things being equal, it's the low road to say/do nothing, not the high one.

the apathetic/ironic/anti-moralist responses are all one big mental defense mechanism to spare people the shame of ignoring festering problems that affect us all (and this conflict does affect us all, it has directly caused/shaped the post-9/11 world we live in). it's understandable sometimes, I mean it's very easy to succumb to helplessness or look away for the sake of preserving a shred of sanity. but we're not excused. I think it's telling that the young are more willing to speak up on this and many other issues like climate, ecocide, inequality, etc. they haven't been completely poisoned by irony yet and they will bear the brunt of our failures in the decades to come.

Even if you say it's not personally directed, I feel like you're boxing me in as an example. ("part of the prevailing ....") So I feel I need to defend myself anyway. To me, it looks like you're simply putting words/thoughts behind my argument that aren't there.

Case in point: I made one word bold. Because IMO that's the core of your argument where you're going off-road. It's outside my zone of expertise. Not outside my zone of interest. I'm simply no expert. If you think I'm not interested, or you think that about people in general who make similar arguments, you're simply projecting, imo. Sorry to be frank and all that. But you're boxing me ("those people") in a way that I feel is unjustified. Not cool. Completely unnecessary. And unhelpful. 

I'm not against people "speaking up". But I guess we have different ideas on what is effective when speaking up when it comes to issues such as these.

Please note that I have no issues with people protesting and making themselves heard on the streets. Showing their (op)position on some issues. May as well be climate. Protests are part of a healthy democracy. What I keep myself from doing is taking part in a discussion in which I know I don't have the expertise. These are not two sides of the same coin, imo. And shouldn't be put in the same box.

[Alcofribas]

10 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

At first it seems obvious to condemn US(UK) for allowing the current situation to continue. Too obvious even. So in my poor-mans attempt to try to understand why the US voted against, I read the reuters article. yeah, I kid you not. and this is what my open and naive worldview took away from this little mental exercise :

first the obvious: US voted against because Israel opposes. Duh. Then the somewhat less obvious question: why is israel against? Reading reuters: because Hamas isn’t addressed properly.
Obviously, without any detailed knowledge I can’t make any meaningful judgement about such a claim. But, if I take it at face value - meaning Israel is completely upfront and open - I could understand that Israel would consider Hamas a key point that needs to be addressed. From their perspective. ( yeah mental exercise) Because without, there wouldn’t be a meaningful ceasefire. Or so they would argue, i would assume.  

And the US? Well, I guess their opposition could mean there is some validity to Israels objections. Or they think so. 
Does it matter that most other nations did support it? Yes and no. Why no? Because it would have been obvious US would veto, I assume. So at that point the vote had become political symbolism. Meaning: a vote to show broad support for a ceasefire. Any ceasefire. Regardless of the conditions. Even if those conditions weren’t good. 

My conclusion: there’s a good reason I try to keep myself from taking part in discussions such as these. It makes me feel and look stupid. But more importantly, to me looks like a giant “moral outrage” porn gangbang. And I feel dirty and dumb by posting this. 

It’s an important issue. I hope it gets resolved soon. Hopefully others have more interesting things to say. Ill gladly take the hit if it is at my expense 

i would recommend taking a look at the record of the un security council on this issue. one might more accurately call it a broken record. the us and israel and not vetoing the council bc "hamas needs to be addressed" - there will always be cute little claims like this as half-baked window dressing to smugly cover the incessant brutal conquest of the middle east by western military power. it's always just and righteous. sensible intellectuals always find some clever little nugget of reasoning for slaughter as long as it's by the approved power.

every single israeli invasion is like this - they go into gaza to destroy, the us funnels even more money and arms to them, the united nations cries fowl, and then the us and israel say they are innocently fighting terrorism and will not stop bc they're the good guys.

dk man, if hamas was my problem i kinda just don't see how bombing the fuck out of thousands of innocent people would solve that for me. but then again, if hamas wasn't my problem and it was actually the existence of palestinians per se...i could see how these methods would be effective. maybe this looks like a "moral outrage porn gangbang" to you (whatever that means) but to me i see business as usual. over a million palestinians rendered homeless, over 17k lives savagely removed from earth, and for the majority of people in the west this means nothing, doesn't even register on the radar, and anyway isn't it all hamas' fault? 

[zlemflolia]

5 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

Even if you say it's not personally directed, I feel like you're boxing me in as an example. ("part of the prevailing ....") So I feel I need to defend myself anyway. To me, it looks like you're simply putting words/thoughts behind my argument that aren't there.

Case in point: I made one word bold. Because IMO that's the core of your argument where you're going off-road. It's outside my zone of expertise. Not outside my zone of interest. I'm simply no expert. If you think I'm not interested, or you think that about people in general who make similar arguments, you're simply projecting, imo. Sorry to be frank and all that. But you're boxing me ("those people") in a way that I feel is unjustified. Not cool. Completely unnecessary. And unhelpful. 

I'm not against people "speaking up". But I guess we have different ideas on what is effective when speaking up when it comes to issues such as these.

Please note that I have no issues with people protesting and making themselves heard on the streets. Showing their (op)position on some issues. May as well be climate. Protests are part of a healthy democracy. What I keep myself from doing is taking part in a discussion in which I know I don't have the expertise. These are not two sides of the same coin, imo. And shouldn't be put in the same box.

what expertise do u need to know cutting off electricity and water to an entire region is wrong? forcing people into a few square mile box and bombing them is wrong?  killing babies and shooting protestors legs is wrong? its not "moral outrage porn gangbang", its literally morally outrageous, it actually is

[LooseLink]

The Middle East has ended up being one big chessboard.... sad, I feel more for the generations of civilians that had to put up with this shit...

[usagi]

8 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

Case in point: I made one word bold. Because IMO that's the core of your argument where you're going off-road. It's outside my zone of expertise. Not outside my zone of interest. I'm simply no expert. If you think I'm not interested, or you think that about people in general who make similar arguments, you're simply projecting, imo. Sorry to be frank and all that. But you're boxing me ("those people") in a way that I feel is unjustified. Not cool. Completely unnecessary. And unhelpful. 

if that's what you meant, then note that I did account for that in my reply when I said people should take the time to understand issues before speaking. however in your original post, specifically the bit I quoted in my reply, you didn't explain that your hesitation around saying anything was primarily because of a lack of understanding. instead you spoke about the 'moral' dimension and implied people are just piling on to this issue to virtue signal, that getting involved in this felt dirty. what was the point of this? that is what I - and evidently a few others who have posted above me - have taken issue with.

there are people out there, especially in the western intelligentsia, who will use this angle to embarrass others into not participating in calls for justice, really basic humanitarian issues. meanwhile the people who have to suffer through actual conflicts haven't got the privilege or comfort in their lives of being blasé and distant about it. intellectual discussion evaporates into nothing when you're being bombed.

[ignatius]

israel is targeting culturally relevant people on purpose. poets, journalists, old people.... 

The elderly Palestinian woman who had gone viral online for saying that she was "older than Israel" in a video was killed by an Israeli sniper.

[ignatius]

 

[decibal cooper]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:10 AM, usagi said:

source

yeah, Biden's so cool. definitely the best the US has to offer rn.

Part of me is still fuming that this happened. At the president's order, the secretary of state used legalese tyranny, interpreting 'laws' in the broadest sense, to declare an emergency so that they could send tank ammunition and other weapons without any congressional oversight to Israel. They did this on a Friday evening so as to delay it's entry into the weekday news cycle. I usually rely on the analysis of former military professionals who have retired to try and understand what is happening in this conflict from America's perspective, and it seems from what they say that these weapons will either be used to level infrastructure, target Hamas strongholds, or to target civilians, (or possibly all three of these) OR they want Israel's stockpiles up in case the conflict begins spreading to other countries. Concerning to say the least.

Edited December 14, 2023 by decibal cooper
added sentence about the timing (Friday evening)

[auxien]

Quote

The preliminary report Saturday by the Israel Defense Forces, or IDF, said the hostages had managed to evade their captors in the northern Gaza neighborhood of Shijaiyah before they were "mistakenly identified" as they exited a building on Friday. They were then shot by an Israeli soldier.

Two were killed immediately and another was wounded and ran back into the building, an Israeli official said in a briefing on Saturday. Soldiers then heard a cry for help in Hebrew. The soldier's battalion commander ordered the firing to stop. The third hostage later died of his wounds.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/16/1219826061/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-palestinians

Israeli soldiers taking some cues from American police. shoot first, and shoot second, and shoot third, hell just keep shooting no matter what.

[ignatius]

CNN? Doing a decent job? Mentioning how many journalists have been killed? 
 

 

[auxien]

1 hour ago, ignatius said:

CNN? Doing a decent job? Mentioning how many journalists have been killed? 
 

 

that's pretty solid yeah. fucking heartbreaking stuff. "Gaza will go down as one of the great horrors of modern warfare.....window into hell continues" - don't get more stark or plain that that shit. her comparing the Gazan civilian death toll with the American invasions of Iraq/Afghanistan was pretty fitting too. speak that shit out loud, America is fucking tyrannical as well, and now Israel's following our lead.

even considering all the coordinated pro-Israel things i've seen from the mainstream places, it's been surprisingly balanced. not 50/50 but not like 90/10 as i was worried we'd see. there's been good reporting from a lot of 'standard' places, like this one.

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by auxien
please don't take my '50/50' as a summation of blame in the conflict. it's surely not that simple & there's much blame to go around, but the powerful side here, Israel, is well, well past any illusions of a 'measured retaliation' to the Hamas attacks...

[Bubba69]

13 minutes ago, auxien said:

her comparing the Gazan civilian death toll with the American invasions of Iraq/Afghanistan was pretty fitting too. speak that shit out loud

 

 

For sure, that stuck out to me as well

[beerwolf]

Murdering their own hostages (who were half naked to show they had no suicide belts on and waving white flags) is a pretty big deal, one would suspect. But no doubt they will carry on full steam ahead in the engineering of their own version of the holocaust.

Edited December 17, 2023 by beerwolf

[usagi]

58 minutes ago, beerwolf said:

Murdering their own hostages (who were half naked to show they had no suicide belts on and waving white flags) is a pretty big deal, one would suspect. But no doubt they will carry on full steam ahead in the engineering of their own version of the holocaust.

as others have pointed out, this doesn't happen unless you've already committed to indiscriminately killing civilians. fuck the IDF.

[decibal cooper]

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/death-and-destruction-in-gaza

Quote

As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?

Have been following this guy's analysis of both Israel/Palestine and Russia/Ukraine conflicts. John Mearsheimer, American political science scholar. He wrote a book about the Israel lobby in America many years ago.

I find Lex Friedman to be a little bit annoying and thick-headed, but in his interview with this guy (clip below) I learned a lot about the lobby and how it works as a public relations operation in America to silence criticism of Israel (Zionism especially) and to secure unquestioning military support from America.

His arguments make sense to me and help put current discourse in America about this conflict into perspective. Sometimes it is small things, like the US Congress passing a non-binding resolution equating Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism. One republican and 14 democrats voted against it. Also, there was a hearing recently where three ivy league university presidents were brought before Congress to answer questions about "combating antisemitism on campus" - and they were asked by a republican congresswoman whether or not 'calling for the genocide of the jews' was protected speech. The presidents, relying on consul of their lawyers no doubt (instead of delivering an impassioned defense of free speech), replied that it was context dependent and also that if such speech became action (like if it became a real threat) then it is absolutely against the law and considered harassment etc. The president for the University of Pennsylvania emphasized that the student code of conduct at their university is based on the US Constitution (1st amendment in particular). The following day, facing criticism, this president recorded a video saying that she was wrong in her testimony and that the school would be examining and possibly changing the code of conduct to reflect this. She performed an act of public self-criticism, and the school still threw her under the buss (she resigned as president but still works there as a professor). Anyway, feel like these things might be unconnected and maybe even unrelated to public interest political groups that do public relations and line the pockets of politicians that they want to do their bidding, but I also wonder if maybe there is something that rings true about what that guy said about the lobbyists - that it is a concerted effort to protect military support of US to Israel at all costs, silence any critics of is, and to make sure that Americans by and large are not paying any attention to the things that are being done in their name.

This is that video of the Penn prez, which is kind of funny in a dank meme sorta way

 

[auxien]

4 hours ago, beerwolf said:

Murdering their own hostages (who were half naked to show they had no suicide belts on and waving white flags) is a pretty big deal, one would suspect. But no doubt they will carry on full steam ahead in the engineering of their own version of the holocaust.

honestly i think this might be something that could soften Israel's aggression. i could be wrong, maybe i'm being hopeful?

[ignatius]

did i post this here yet? 

 

[ignatius]

1 hour ago, auxien said:

honestly i think this might be something that could soften Israel's aggression. i could be wrong, maybe i'm being hopeful?

it's hopeful i think. if netanyahu and his right wing psychos cared about the hostages they wouldn't have turned gaza into a wasteland. they had to have their arms twisted just to get a pause in bombing to make a hostage deal. 

[decibal cooper]

Was hoping that there would be another pause in fighting for Christmas like there was for Thanksgiving, and there will not be it seems. Saw an interview with former US military professional offer perspective on I s rael strategy at around 18 minute mark: "let's push what we can't kill" into Sinai/Egypt from Gaza, "let's push what we can't kill" into Jordan from West Bank is how current Is r ael strategy is described by interviewee

Edited December 24, 2023 by decibal cooper
replaced 'Lebanon' with 'Jordan'

[ARPA]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/crowdfunding-us-residents-fund-settlements-west-bank

Revealed: how US residents are funding illegal settlements in the West Bank
Crowdfunding site IsraelGives allows US residents to donate millions to paramilitary groups, IDF units and settlers

[exitonly]

1 hour ago, decibal cooper said:

Was hoping that there would be another pause in fighting for Christmas like there was for Thanksgiving,

ah yes, the pause so the IDF could celebrate Thanksgiving. They are also really big on Christmas. Hopefully there will be a Presidents’ day pause as well

[ignatius]

12 minutes ago, exitonly said:

ah yes, the pause so the IDF could celebrate Thanksgiving. They are also really big on Christmas. Hopefully there will be a Presidents’ day pause as well

it's nuts. the christian churches cancelled xmas there because of what's happening in gaza. no celebrations, no mass etc..