Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Crazing]

Genius

[zero]

to me at least it seems, if we are talking about the immediate cause of the horrible deaths and violence we are all bearing witness to right now on a daily basis, then it is hard to deny political/economic/nationalistic reasons are at the forefront as to the "why" this is happening. but if you want to look back at the historical reason to understand what is at the root of the conflict between these 2 groups, then it is hard to deny that religion has played a massive part here.

this essay says it much better than I can - https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/religion-and-israel-palestinian-conflict-cause-consequence-and-cure

[ignatius]

11 hours ago, aderei said:

The origin of the problem is colonialism and not religious maximalism imo. 

yeah.. and then religion becomes an excuse or justification for the colonialism. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by ignatius

[xox]

 

[chenGOD]

5 hours ago, ignatius said:

yeah.. and then religion becomes an excuse or justification for the colonialism. 

I want to be clear that I am not excusing or justifying colonialism.

THe proximal cause of the issue is religion, and until you remove that, there will be no peace. Simply removing the US/Western Europe from the equation will not solve the issue. That would be rational, but we are dealing with fundamentally irrational actors.

[auxien]

Quote

The UN-approved 1947 partition plan triggered a civil war between these two peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

the seizure of the land is the actual problem. the forcible removal of control of peoples inhabiting the land, who had general claims to it, has been the bulk of the issues ever since. religion is why the land is important, of course. the religions of the peoples vying for control of the land is important, of course, and why you can't separate 'religion' from 'land'. but the actual ownership of the land/'nation' is why there's an ongoing, festering wound. if Netanyahu ceded control of all the lands to the Palestinian people with the condition of allowing some significant protections for Jewish sites, interests, and some private ownership, the base problem would be solved, and all reset to 1947 pre-'Israel'.

obviously, that's not going to happen, and there's 10,000 other problems that surround the land ownership, the hugest parts of which is religion, money, & power. duh. anyone reading this already knows that. but the original sin of the last ~75 years is the colonial occupation and takeover of the land and all the land contains and represents, and of course who the land was taken over from.

Spoiler

just a quick note i'm probably not going to reply to anyone quoting or arguing about this w/ me directly because it's plainly obvious and the details are not that important nor interesting, and also this whole thing makes me sad and i'll get pissed trying to convince some dumbass that the sky is, in fact, blue.

Spoiler

yes the point of a forum is discussion, i get that, but let's just not okay? okay.

Spoiler

like, no, really...don't bother. just burger or facepalm me or some shit idgaf

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by auxien

[ignatius]

31 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I want to be clear that I am not excusing or justifying colonialism.

THe proximal cause of the issue is religion, and until you remove that, there will be no peace. Simply removing the US/Western Europe from the equation will not solve the issue. That would be rational, but we are dealing with fundamentally irrational actors.

oh totally. i didn't get that impression at all. just adding into the batter we're folding here... 

i do think irrational people are doing all the things but there's some machiavellian type shit going on politically and lot's of maneuvering and agendas and all that.  netanyahu and the right wingers in israel are steeped in hate for sure.. hamas is fucking hamas... and gonna do hamas shit..  it's not like anyone is considering the greater good in an honest way... there is self interested 'good' being considered. 

it's not something we can unpack here with a handful of posts but the thing that is upfront and clear is basically a genocide happening on people pushed into a corner, fenced in and being bombed with out access to food and water or medical supplies etc.  pretty clear. 

israel wants to wipe out gaza and push those people out then focus on the west bank... 

it's just so ironic... 

i wish that everyone would realize that no one is special.. no one was gifted anything by 'god' and we're all just here moving through space stuck to a big rock. 

[zlemflolia]

17 hours ago, chenGOD said:

the end of apartheid in South Africa was the result of negotiations, not violent protest.

this is such liberal reformism im getting sick of responding but thats all ill say.  sorry palestinians arent following your rules based economic order

[ignatius]

south africa apartheid took a long time to unwind. i remember it ongoing for a long time. there was a huge push for businesses and universities asn governments to divest from south africa. that took a long time and there were many protests. it wasn't just negotiations. there were sit ins. colleges were in uproars at times and there were marches and all kinds of stuff. i was still pretty young for a lot of it so wasn't tuned in really unless my parents were pulling me in to watch the news and tell me what was going on.. but later as i got a little older it was something that was present enough to talk about amongst friends and teachers etc... 

[Crazing]

3 hours ago, xox said:

 

Why would he wanna get beat twice...oh the views....he's so pathetic he wants to get wasted again just for views...

[ignatius]

this sounds so crazy. the drones flying around are non stop and they actually make like a doom synth drone. what a sound track to being bombed.. fuck.

 

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, zlemflolia said:

this is such liberal reformism im getting sick of responding but thats all ill say.  sorry palestinians arent following your rules based economic order

It's the truth, not any sort of revisionism.

2 hours ago, ignatius said:

south africa apartheid took a long time to unwind. i remember it ongoing for a long time. there was a huge push for businesses and universities asn governments to divest from south africa. that took a long time and there were many protests. it wasn't just negotiations. there were sit ins. colleges were in uproars at times and there were marches and all kinds of stuff. i was still pretty young for a lot of it so wasn't tuned in really unless my parents were pulling me in to watch the news and tell me what was going on.. but later as i got a little older it was something that was present enough to talk about amongst friends and teachers etc... 

Yeah I'm not discounting any of that - and there have been calls to divest from Israel, although nowhere near as strident as with South Africa. To be honest, I don't think any sort of two-state solution can work, because of the religious aspect. Like it's all well and good to look at it from a rational point of view - hey we should all work together to make the world a better place, and when we disagree on points, let's talk it out like rational people. But religious adherents are inherently irrational (see the joke about hearing voices but not getting sent to psychiatric counseling), and you (not you personally iggy) cannot rationalize that belief system away.

[ignatius]

14 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Yeah I'm not discounting any of that - and there have been calls to divest from Israel, although nowhere near as strident as with South Africa. To be honest, I don't think any sort of two-state solution can work, because of the religious aspect. Like it's all well and good to look at it from a rational point of view - hey we should all work together to make the world a better place, and when we disagree on points, let's talk it out like rational people. But religious adherents are inherently irrational (see the joke about hearing voices but not getting sent to psychiatric counseling), and you (not you personally iggy) cannot rationalize that belief system away.

also, the history.. the long history. the things people don't forget. it's hard for a whole people or country or government to take the high road and even apologize for past deeds. there's not a lot of trust in the room. every government is in a fight to make their country more powerful in some way... or do well for their people at the expense of.. something.. plus there's a ton of super rich assholes pulling the strings.  global capitalism is as much if not more of a hurdle than religion.. but that's just my 2 cents. 

college campuses are trying in some places but any movement that way gets labeled antisemitic. there's students groups on both sides who play the game of manipulation of local press etc.. and on line going viral and all that shit.. not to mention there's actual lobbyists, cozy relationships, money etc.. 

it's hard for the divest from israel movement to get going but there's a lot of people who probably support it. obviously gonna be controversial and trigger a lot of people. 

al jazeera produced so make of that what you want but it's out in the open and the under cover stuff is nuts. monitoring american students and getting involved. it's all pretty gross but standard operating procedure for this kind of thing regardless of what the issue is.. big oil, tobacco, abortion, any issue  really.. this is how they play the game.  there's another companion series of all the british stuff and israel lobby effect on british government. it's not surprising.. it's what governments do.. but people dont think about. 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by ignatius

[Hail Sagan]

The algorithm is hitting me with some wild shit now. 
 

Also am I tripping or does it actually say PREDATOR on dude’s laptop in the second half of the video?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Hail Sagan

[Rubin Farr]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/middleeast/hamas-russia-moscow.html

[decibal cooper]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/vladimir-putin-revokes-russias-ratification-of-nuclear-test-ban-treaty/articleshow/104913528.cms

Also, this gem from about a year ago, a legit nuclear attack public service announcement aired in NYC: 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by decibal cooper
added video

[usagi]

3 hours ago, Hail Sagan said:

The algorithm is hitting me with some wild shit now. 

resist this. even if it shows you content that jives with your opinions. people should be a lot more circumspect about who they give their clicks.

[auxien]

1 hour ago, usagi said:

people should be a lot more circumspect about who they give their clicks.

100% this. even clicking to hate watch is feeding the beast. the only way to control their idiocy/trolling/etc. is to starve them of reach. each click goes against that and each share multiplies it by orders of magnitude.

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, usagi said:

resist this. even if it shows you content that jives with your opinions. people should be a lot more circumspect about who they give their clicks.

This is why I only like and retweet japanese noise shows and woodworking videos.

[decibal cooper]

38 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

This is why I only like and retweet japanese noise shows and woodworking videos.

I recently signed up for X so that I have access to tweets. There are times where you can get wind of new stories breaking (about global political events), and even if the content is presented in an overtly ideological way, it can still be a basis for which to do your own research and look for verification from foreign presses and other reputable sources. At the same time, I have done what you do as well, basically liking and retweeting things to tailor my feed. My feed is pretty much just animal videos and MF DOOM or Hip Hop related content it's awesome.

[usagi]

1 hour ago, auxien said:

100% this. even clicking to hate watch is feeding the beast. the only way to control their idiocy/trolling/etc. is to starve them of reach. each click goes against that and each share multiplies it by orders of magnitude.

same logic also applies to reposting/signal-boosting content from bad sources, even if "they got there first".

[milkface]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/30/uk-ministers-cobra-meeting-terrorism-threat-israel-hamas-conflict-suella-braverman

British media stop making this a "both sides" thing challenge

Edited November 2, 2023 by Squee

[milkface]

27 minutes ago, milkface said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/30/uk-ministers-cobra-meeting-terrorism-threat-israel-hamas-conflict-suella-braverman

British media stop making this a "both sides" thing challenge

To clarify the cases of antisemitism during some Palestine demos in the UK is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable but to label people calling for peace and safety in Gaza as being part of a "hate march" is very wrong.

[xox]

19 minutes ago, milkface said:

To clarify the cases of antisemitism during some Palestine demos in the UK is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable but to label people calling for peace and safety in Gaza as being part of a "hate march" is very wrong.

 yes, and we should all join those ''hate marches'' bc normal people HATE all possible genocides including the one that's happening right now in gaza

[decibal cooper]

Tangentially related to Israel/Palestine conflict, but a most unwelcome development: https://stefanik.house.gov/2023/11/stefanik-mccaul-resolution-declares-a-nuclear-iran-unacceptable-and-to-use-all-means-necessary-to-prevent-iran-from-becoming-nuclear-ready/e3fb180e-0ce2-4140-8a1c-1d258374c68a

Quote

November 1, 2023

Washington, D.C. - Today, Congresswoman Elise Stefanik and Congressman McCaul’s resolution, H. Res. 559, passed on the House Floor declaring it the policy of the United States that a nuclear Iran is unacceptable.