SAW1 has just been released in Atmos on Apple Music

[bighairycellar]

Probably some other streaming services as well.

https://music.apple.com/album/selected-ambient-works-85-92/1108845101

[Goiter Sanchez]

Does that mean it's been remixed in surround? I wonder what Richard thinks of it.

[bighairycellar]

56 minutes ago, Goiter Sanchez said:

Does that mean it's been remixed in surround? I wonder what Richard thinks of it.

Haven't heard it yet, but I know Apple only accepts legit Atmos mixes, i.e. mixes created by using upmixing software on stereo tracks are rejected.

On the other hand, weren't some (all?) of these tracks taken from a cassette? What are the chances that the multitracks are still around?

Edited January 9, 2023 by bighairycellar

[X4creek]

maybe its just bc i havent tried it yet but i Really dont understand the hype behind Atmos

 

also i wish it was ...ICBYD instead

[Goiter Sanchez]

I'd say there's no chance of the multitracks being available at all considering how he used to record these. I assume Ai is utilized to essentially reproduce the layers discreetly and then apply the surround mixing. It'd be interesting to hear what they've done with it, and presumably RDJ had to sign off on the project.

[chenGOD]

Can't wait to listen on headphones.

[Enthusiast]

Doesn't sound like a proper atmos mix. 

11 hours ago, Goiter Sanchez said:

I assume Ai is utilized to essentially reproduce the layers discreetly and then apply the surround mixing.

Aside from being used on Revolver, I don't know that this technology is available yet.

https://www.vulture.com/2022/11/the-beatles-revolver-super-deluxe-peter-jackson-get-back.html

[Rubin Farr]

Is it the remastered version or the wonky bass version?

[Dragon]

when i tried recording an original vinyl press of SAW85-92 onto a chrome cassette, it was the best sound in the universe. the warm, analog sound of this particular album - because of the way it was produced and mastered - cannot survive any attempt at a digital transfer. remember this whenever you're listening to the remastered editions (or, dare i say, mp3s copies).

i'll probably listen to this out of curiosity, but of course it's been produced digitally and probably littered with artifacts from AI algorithms. really it's like two different albums.

 

[Joyrex]

22 hours ago, Goiter Sanchez said:

I'd say there's no chance of the multitracks being available at all considering how he used to record these. I assume Ai is utilized to essentially reproduce the layers discreetly and then apply the surround mixing. It'd be interesting to hear what they've done with it, and presumably RDJ had to sign off on the project.

Probably the same tech Apple is using to drop out the vocals of songs interactively

[PurpleMoustache]

Had an account here back during the Syro rollout, but let my sub lapse. Been lurking but rejoined for this, since it's something I happen to know a bit about.

This is not done by Apple, Apple merely hosts it. Instead, tragically, Apple has decided to just simply not enforce it's own policy re: Atmos upmixes. The worst offender is Warner, who dumps every hit single, and a handful of full albums into an AI upmixer and uploads the result. Often times the quality control is so poor, they leave the timecode track in the center channel. like in Robert Glasper Experiment's Black Radio.

Within 10 seconds of Xtal, I figured out what was "wrong" with this mix: it's another common way to skirt Dolby and Apple policy: copy paste the stereo into each channel. The original stereo is in the fronts, rears, sides, and heights. To create surround "effects" lower the volume of one channel, and voila. The effect works marginally better through earbuds/headphones as opposed to my 5.1.2, with the voices talking about trains in Tha appearing to hover slightly in the right side heights.

The payouts for Atmos streaming must be set differently than simple stereo, since this is a plague that's effected many classic albums. from Love's Forever Changes, to M83's Hurry Up We're Dreaming, and many more. While focusing on Warner only, this thread on surround sound music forum QuadraphonicQuad lists the sheer volume of crap mixes, as well as user efforts to help get them removed.

Furthermore, I doubt that Rich signed off on this, as this seems like something R&S would do on their own, considering how many mixes don't have artist involvement.

It's a shame, because when Atmos is done well (Magic Oneohtrix Point Never, Bjork's Fossora, the Kraftwerk 3-D The Catalogue/Der Katalog, and lots lots more, but sticking to IDM/IDM-adjacent titles here) it's fantastic. In fact, this frankly makes me want Rich to actually do proper mixes for other albums. But as it is, sadly it's just a crap mix of a great album. Based on how things are going however, about 30 of the bad Warner titles have had their mixes pulled, I doubt this is still up by the end of the year

[Silent Member]

Ew, disgusting 

[Lane Visitor]

Stoked to check this out, but also curious why SAW 1 would be chosen out of all other Aphex, though I'm not complaining. I just never really think of SAW I as an aurally challenging or immersive sounding lp to begin with, as it's so minimal. Its charm and absolute beauty lies in it's melodic simplicity, icy soft textures, hypnotic pulses and analog warmth and to be honest I almost could enjoy those aspects on a shitty mono speaker as much as I can on a high end system.

That said, I could see why such a beloved album could want to be expanded even further sonically, so I'm happy it's being done. Out of his work though, I'd love to hear Atmos releases of Drukqs, Syro, Collapse, Come to Daddy. Imagine that omg. Imagine sitting in room with a full on Atmos system hearing proper RDJ approved Atmos mixes of Drukqs or Syro. It would be a fucking a religious experience!

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Lane Visitor

[Silent Member]

Isn't SAW basically sourced from old tapes? Can't imagine fucking around with the stereo source to make surround + height channels will make it sound better in any way 

[mcbpete]

35 minutes ago, Silent Member said:

Isn't SAW basically sourced from old tapes?

Aye, from his interview with Future Music magazine in '93:

Quote

“..considering that the tracks were selected by his friends in Cornwall, who were listening to the tapes on car stereos and Walkmans, some of those masters have seen the wear of around 50 cassette players, so he reckons. “With the first track [Xtal on Ambient Works], the tape had chewed in about seven places.” Richard resisted the temptation to edit the tracks for the album. “Not much has been EQ’d. It would have been easy to edit out the glitches digitally, but it’s a retrospective look, and the tape munching was all part of the stuff I was doing, so I’ve left it in.”

'SAW 85-92 re-released' is pretty much the punchline to a joke nowadays !

[Goiter Sanchez]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:05 AM, PurpleMoustache said:

Had an account here back during the Syro rollout, but let my sub lapse. Been lurking but rejoined for this, since it's something I happen to know a bit about.

This is not done by Apple, Apple merely hosts it. Instead, tragically, Apple has decided to just simply not enforce it's own policy re: Atmos upmixes. The worst offender is Warner, who dumps every hit single, and a handful of full albums into an AI upmixer and uploads the result. Often times the quality control is so poor, they leave the timecode track in the center channel. like in Robert Glasper Experiment's Black Radio.

Within 10 seconds of Xtal, I figured out what was "wrong" with this mix: it's another common way to skirt Dolby and Apple policy: copy paste the stereo into each channel. The original stereo is in the fronts, rears, sides, and heights. To create surround "effects" lower the volume of one channel, and voila. The effect works marginally better through earbuds/headphones as opposed to my 5.1.2, with the voices talking about trains in Tha appearing to hover slightly in the right side heights.

The payouts for Atmos streaming must be set differently than simple stereo, since this is a plague that's effected many classic albums. from Love's Forever Changes, to M83's Hurry Up We're Dreaming, and many more. While focusing on Warner only, this thread on surround sound music forum QuadraphonicQuad lists the sheer volume of crap mixes, as well as user efforts to help get them removed.

Furthermore, I doubt that Rich signed off on this, as this seems like something R&S would do on their own, considering how many mixes don't have artist involvement.

It's a shame, because when Atmos is done well (Magic Oneohtrix Point Never, Bjork's Fossora, the Kraftwerk 3-D The Catalogue/Der Katalog, and lots lots more, but sticking to IDM/IDM-adjacent titles here) it's fantastic. In fact, this frankly makes me want Rich to actually do proper mixes for other albums. But as it is, sadly it's just a crap mix of a great album. Based on how things are going however, about 30 of the bad Warner titles have had their mixes pulled, I doubt this is still up by the end of the year

Thanks for the info, but I gotta say I love your username/avatar/whole aesthetic. I hope you post more!

[PurpleMoustache]

1 hour ago, Goiter Sanchez said:

Thanks for the info, but I gotta say I love your username/avatar/whole aesthetic. I hope you post more!

Thank you! I plan on stickin around!

[mcbpete]

Recognise yer man from the intro to Oddity Archive's videos 

[Friendly Stranger]

God damn SAW1 kicks so much ass. It never wears out.

[toaoaoad]

46 minutes ago, Friendly Stranger said:

never wears out

Wonder what those old tapes sound like today. Maybe that should be the reissue

[mcbpete]

I like it - Selected Disintegrated Works... The Basinski crossover we didn't think we needed !

[bighairycellar]

Aaaand … now it's not in Atmos anymore! 

[xxx]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:05 PM, PurpleMoustache said:

Had an account here back during the Syro rollout, but let my sub lapse. Been lurking but rejoined for this, since it's something I happen to know a bit about.

This is not done by Apple, Apple merely hosts it. Instead, tragically, Apple has decided to just simply not enforce it's own policy re: Atmos upmixes. The worst offender is Warner, who dumps every hit single, and a handful of full albums into an AI upmixer and uploads the result. Often times the quality control is so poor, they leave the timecode track in the center channel. like in Robert Glasper Experiment's Black Radio.

Within 10 seconds of Xtal, I figured out what was "wrong" with this mix: it's another common way to skirt Dolby and Apple policy: copy paste the stereo into each channel. The original stereo is in the fronts, rears, sides, and heights. To create surround "effects" lower the volume of one channel, and voila. The effect works marginally better through earbuds/headphones as opposed to my 5.1.2, with the voices talking about trains in Tha appearing to hover slightly in the right side heights.

The payouts for Atmos streaming must be set differently than simple stereo, since this is a plague that's effected many classic albums. from Love's Forever Changes, to M83's Hurry Up We're Dreaming, and many more. While focusing on Warner only, this thread on surround sound music forum QuadraphonicQuad lists the sheer volume of crap mixes, as well as user efforts to help get them removed.

Furthermore, I doubt that Rich signed off on this, as this seems like something R&S would do on their own, considering how many mixes don't have artist involvement.

It's a shame, because when Atmos is done well (Magic Oneohtrix Point Never, Bjork's Fossora, the Kraftwerk 3-D The Catalogue/Der Katalog, and lots lots more, but sticking to IDM/IDM-adjacent titles here) it's fantastic. In fact, this frankly makes me want Rich to actually do proper mixes for other albums. But as it is, sadly it's just a crap mix of a great album. Based on how things are going however, about 30 of the bad Warner titles have had their mixes pulled, I doubt this is still up by the end of the year

This is some food for thought and I'm curious about your Warner info. The one time I've had to interact with them is to get the digital files for The War on Drugs. Their latest album sounds so much different from anything they've done from a mastering standpoint. It's possible that it's on purpose but on songs like "I Don't Want to Wait", it's so fuckin compressed and blown out in a very unpleasant way. I haven't been able to compare it to other sources but I'm curious if they have a quality control issue that they just don't care about when it comes time to press digital vinyls.

This is a .wav extracted from the .mp3 and you can see it brick out at numerous points. I guess it could also just be loudness wars or streaming optimizing. It's a bummer. 

 

[PurpleMoustache]

1 hour ago, xxx said:

This is some food for thought and I'm curious about your Warner info. The one time I've had to interact with them is to get the digital files for The War on Drugs. Their latest album sounds so much different from anything they've done from a mastering standpoint. It's possible that it's on purpose but on songs like "I Don't Want to Wait", it's so fuckin compressed and blown out in a very unpleasant way. I haven't been able to compare it to other sources but I'm curious if they have a quality control issue that they just don't care about when it comes time to press digital vinyls.

This is a .wav extracted from the .mp3 and you can see it brick out at numerous points. I guess it could also just be loudness wars or streaming optimizing. It's a bummer. 

 

Not *all* Warner titles are AI upmixes. For example, that latest War on Drugs album is also in Atmos and is a real, proper mix (also the full Talking Heads studio catalogue is also Warner, and real, good mixes, overseen by Jerry Harrison).

Part of why I’m so pumped on the format as a whole (beyond being interested in binaural/surround tech), is Dolby does mandate a floor of -18 LUFS for all Atmos mixes, regardless of type of media (movies, tv shows, games, and yes music). Tragically, nobody has done a Loudness Wars DB pull for that TWoD album nor many Atmos albums on the whole… but they have for Taylor Swift’s Fearless (for some reason), which is a fairly good example of that practice in action.

The Lossless version, as streamed, sold etc has poor dynamic range across the board. But when told to mix more dynamically for Atmos rigs…

The problem we’re in now is both convincing the average user that Atmos makes sense for them, either on the binaural mixdown through headphones side of things, or the home theater side of things. And to get the average user to do that, quality mixes have to be made. But for quality mixes to be made there has to be a userbase, and well… catch 22. The good news on that front is Apple, Amazon Music HD, and Tidal all support, and seemingly subsidize new mixes. When Apple announced they were adding support in Apple Music it was paired with a press release claiming that they were outfitting multiple recording studios with Atmos setups, gratis. It remains to be seen if, on the whole, it all works out. Worst case scenario is we wind up with a few years of pretty good surround mixes, alongside a handful of pretty bad ones.