UFO'S

[BobDobalina]

33 minutes ago, very honest said:

there is literally no reason to think that self-replicating alien ai hasn't been permeating the galaxy for billions of years.

Just hoping to create some constructive dialogue (and not trying to be a dick!), but i can think of a lot of reasons why advanced civilizations and/or their AI aren't permeating the galaxy/universe.  Since the big bang, everything that has come to be has done so through a series of emergences.  The broth of post-bang radiation condensing into matter; this matter then spread unfathomably thin through the early universe (due to it just barely winning out over antimatter by way of quantum fluctuations); this matter then collapsing into the first generations of galaxies and stars (member, still no elements heavier than lithium yet)... fast forward to the emergence of carbon-based structures that, under the right conditions, have the affinity to self-organize and replicate; the emergence of carbon-based "life" itself, and some 13+ billion years later, the emergence of one, self-aware species on this planet capable of abstract thought (but that really still loves to fling poo though).

My question then is how could a hypothetical advanced intelligence come to be without going through a similar series of emergences?  What possible shortcuts are there?  It stands to reason that if any > Type 1 civilizations do exist out there, they would have had to have gone through (and emerged from) a less enlightened state.  Going off our sample set of one (1), all of these emergences take shitloads of time and there are no guarantees that the big 'uns beyond us are even surmountable.

Srooy for the TLDR, this Kurzgesagt video and it's staircase/hurdle analogy does a good (probably better) job of expaining what I'm trying to get at:

 

[zlemflolia]

8 hours ago, goDel said:

indeed. so these more advanced civilisations might be working on completely different ways than "empathy" or "cooperation". hell, if we ever meet them, we might not even to be able to "reason" with them. the idea we need empathy and cooperation to survive, might be completely different to other species. seems very anthropocentric to assume advanced civilisations have been through the same issues we have. maybe they just evolved into beings able to use quantum entanglement to communicate or travel. Without the need of computers or spaceships. you wouldn't need to know how to build a fire if you control the quantum level phenomena.

this is getting silly

not really, these are fundamental math issues.  any distributed system needs cooperation which require empathy i.e. modelling of the internal state of other individuals in the swarm.  there's an extent to which the sociology and psychology of alien species can differ from ours, but not in the areas of certain skills they must have, either built into their hardware or their culture

4 hours ago, very honest said:

i've also followed this stuff for a long time. that's an interesting question. it's been my impression that some entities have been putting out rather thoughtful disinformation on this subject. a lot of people subscribe to the theory that nation states put out disinfo, idk if it's true or not. i maintain healthy skepticism when wading through all this.

 

if the us and russia have been putting up fake sites and content, then it seems like they are trying to bait the other into revealing something they know. it doesn't look to me like it's meant to trick anyone into believing anything, necessarily. the disinfo looks like it's meant to float certain ideas to see what others do with it.

 

what i'm getting at is that this is consistent with the theory that nation states don't know how to account for pilot sightings. they want to know if the others know anything they don't.

 

there is literally no reason to think that self-replicating alien ai hasn't been permeating the galaxy for billions of years. this might be what it would look like. 

wow, that's a really straightforward and obvious explanation for this.  nation states would want "alien reporting" to exist so they can see whether people in the countries they're spying on are noticing them

[goDel]

ueh, no it doesn't. so ants in an ant colony have empathy now? is that what you're saying? swarm technology exists by the virtue of simple rules instead of complex higher stuff (which might be some emergent property) like empathy.

[zlemflolia]

10 hours ago, goDel said:

ueh, no it doesn't. so ants in an ant colony have empathy now? is that what you're saying? swarm technology exists by the virtue of simple rules instead of complex higher stuff (which might be some emergent property) like empathy.

I guess you're right, can ant-like species escape their evolutionary local maxima though, and can they do anything more than farm larvae?  I guess it's actually not far behind what we've done.  insects are pretty alien

[goDel]

Your reasoning reminded me of Nash, btw. Like the focus on the mathematical perspective on empathy and cooperation through game theory. Thing with his approach was the dependence on rationality. Which ended up to be an interesting and useful approach, but a poor explanation of human behavior. As it overstates the importance of rational thought.

There's plenty evidence we're way less rational than our immediate experience tells us. (Worse, tries to tell us) And this mismatch is also at display in our thinking of what advanced civilizations would be like.

You are talking about an evolutionary local maximum in the context of ant colonies. Same could be argued about human civilization. And following this logic, we most likely don't have a clue about what a global maximum would look like, or another higher local maximum. Just like an ant colony has no clue about what our civilization is like. It sounds logical that from the perspective of some higher intelligence we're just another kind of ant colony. More advanced, but still...just ants doing their ignorant things.

Someone already mentioned our next step in our evolution is AI. And who knows. Maybe our only escape from our current local maximum might be through AI. It certainly looks like we'll be creating AI sooner than space travel and starting colonies on distant planets outside our solar system. So in terms of possible futures, the Matrix or Terminator future seems closer and more likely (ignore the shit about Neo, and focus on the part where AI outsmart us) than a Star Trek one. Seems more likely we'll actually create this advanced civilization which will survive us.

I'm guessing the next step in our evolution will be some kind of disembodied intelligence. Our bodies create too many limitations. It binds us to a specific place. Bodies cost too much energy and can break. Bodies put limits on sensory inputs, and intelligence. Which is kind of ironic, because our current understanding of our intelligence pushes us towards the emphasis on our bodies. As opposed to just our mind. But Im getting off track.

The thing about ufo's and advanced civilizations is that it assumes similarities to our way of being. I assume thats nonsense. It's the same old "earth is flat" or "sun revolves around the earth" kind of thinking at display, imo. It is based on our own personal experiences. Or in other words, it is limited. 

It's more likely it will be completely dissimilar, instead of similar. And we might not even recognize it if it's directly in front of us. If we can perceive it.

So yeah, today I argued we're just another kind of ant colony. Dear diary, why?

Dear diary, today I had an existantial crisis, but luckily very localized and no threat to the entire system. No DNA was harmed and cells functioned as usual...  wait, my body is like an ant colony as well!? FU!

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, goDel said:

Your reasoning reminded me of Nash, btw. Like the focus on the mathematical perspective on empathy and cooperation through game theory. Thing with his approach was the dependence on rationality. Which ended up to be an interesting and useful approach, but a poor explanation of human behavior. As it overstates the importance of rational thought.

There's plenty evidence we're way less rational than our immediate experience tells us. (Worse, tries to tell us) And this mismatch is also at display in our thinking of what advanced civilizations would be like.

You are talking about an evolutionary local maximum in the context of ant colonies. Same could be argued about human civilization. And following this logic, we most likely don't have a clue about what a global maximum would look like, or another higher local maximum. Just like an ant colony has no clue about what our civilization is like. It sounds logical that from the perspective of some higher intelligence we're just another kind of ant colony. More advanced, but still...just ants doing their ignorant things.

Someone already mentioned our next step in our evolution is AI. And who knows. Maybe our only escape from our current local maximum might be through AI. It certainly looks like we'll be creating AI sooner than space travel and starting colonies on distant planets outside our solar system. So in terms of possible futures, the Matrix or Terminator future seems closer and more likely (ignore the shit about Neo, and focus on the part where AI outsmart us) than a Star Trek one. Seems more likely we'll actually create this advanced civilization which will survive us.

I'm guessing the next step in our evolution will be some kind of disembodied intelligence. Our bodies create too many limitations. It binds us to a specific place. Bodies cost too much energy and can break. Bodies put limits on sensory inputs, and intelligence. Which is kind of ironic, because our current understanding of our intelligence pushes us towards the emphasis on our bodies. As opposed to just our mind. But Im getting off track.

The thing about ufo's and advanced civilizations is that it assumes similarities to our way of being. I assume thats nonsense. It's the same old "earth is flat" or "sun revolves around the earth" kind of thinking at display, imo. It is based on our own personal experiences. Or in other words, it is limited. 

It's more likely it will be completely dissimilar, instead of similar. And we might not even recognize it if it's directly in front of us. If we can perceive it.

So yeah, today I argued we're just another kind of ant colony. Dear diary, why?

Dear diary, today I had an existantial crisis, but luckily very localized and no threat to the entire system. No DNA was harmed and cells functioned as usual...  wait, my body is like an ant colony as well!? FU!

yeah, it's unlikely that future reality will be weird but only weird enough for us to comprehend.  instead it will be weirder than we can comprehend.  mind-controlled ai robot swarms, with the control being done through neural feedback loop based machine learning model training to imbue into them our ultimate zeitgeist, being used to scavenge the universe for useful information (much more valuable than mere materials) which it returns to the mothership swarm galaxy over incomprehensible time periods, comprehensible only to disembodied previously-organic minds imbued into decentralized ai, the mind of a neurotically purged conglomeration of only our best human mental traits, trying to exert not only our persistence but our will upon reality, because if we don't something else will.  in the end might will make right and even a grand and glorious civilization defending its existence in a region of space could be nothing more than a pathogen to one even moreso, given how things are with us our extermination by aliens may not be that bad and is just a cleanup procedure on a universal scale, even if to us it's tragic

[Squee]

Holy shit, I knew Dan Aykroyd was into the paranormal and UFOs, but this rabbit hole goes deep.

 

[may be rude]

On 9/6/2019 at 10:01 AM, BobDobalina said:

Just hoping to create some constructive dialogue (and not trying to be a dick!), but i can think of a lot of reasons why advanced civilizations and/or their AI aren't permeating the galaxy/universe.  Since the big bang, everything that has come to be has done so through a series of emergences.  The broth of post-bang radiation condensing into matter; this matter then spread unfathomably thin through the early universe (due to it just barely winning out over antimatter by way of quantum fluctuations); this matter then collapsing into the first generations of galaxies and stars (member, still no elements heavier than lithium yet)... fast forward to the emergence of carbon-based structures that, under the right conditions, have the affinity to self-organize and replicate; the emergence of carbon-based "life" itself, and some 13+ billion years later, the emergence of one, self-aware species on this planet capable of abstract thought (but that really still loves to fling poo though).

My question then is how could a hypothetical advanced intelligence come to be without going through a similar series of emergences?  What possible shortcuts are there?  It stands to reason that if any > Type 1 civilizations do exist out there, they would have had to have gone through (and emerged from) a less enlightened state.  Going off our sample set of one (1), all of these emergences take shitloads of time and there are no guarantees that the big 'uns beyond us are even surmountable.

Srooy for the TLDR, this Kurzgesagt video and it's staircase/hurdle analogy does a good (probably better) job of expaining what I'm trying to get at:

 

 

 

 

the sun is a second generation star. civilizations could have risen and fallen countless times before our sun was even born, 5 billion years ago. or, risen and not fallen, and deployed self-replicating AI to explore and study the galaxy.

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by very honest

[Enthusiast]

That Bob Lazar stuff is pretty crazy. I'm not a UFO person but his story leaves me wondering. I don't smoke weed.

[YEK]

3 hours ago, Squee said:

Holy shit, I knew Dan Aykroyd was into the paranormal and UFOs, but this rabbit hole goes deep.

 

Watched this the other day Dan is a crazy motherfucker.

[marf]

you are worth 100 million you believe, you are worth 10 billion you don't believe

[BobDobalina]

7 hours ago, very honest said:

the sun is a second generation star. civilizations could have risen and fallen countless times before our sun was even born, 5 billion years ago. or, risen and not fallen, and deployed self-replicating AI to explore and study the galaxy.

How could a civilization have arisen from a first generation star?  There weren't even elements heavier than lithium yet!

[may be rude]

1 hour ago, BobDobalina said:

How could a civilization have arisen from a first generation star?  There weren't even elements heavier than lithium yet!

 

hm yeah i thought maybe i remembered something like that. that's a relavent factor, the elements. but i still think technological civilizations could have risen billions of years ago. plenty of time for ai to be out there.

Edited September 16, 2019 by very honest

[BobDobalina]

Ugh let's just agree to disagree.  I put cards on the table in my earlier post so not much more to say.

[may be rude]

11 minutes ago, BobDobalina said:

Ugh let's just agree to disagree.  I put cards on the table in my earlier post so not much more to say.

whats the earliest you think life could have achieved technological civilization?

[BobDobalina]

Honestly , beyond second generation stars, at least those with enough of the necessary material in their planetary detritus facultative to organizing into more complexity (i.e., carbon, oxygen, and other heavy elements), I have no idea.  We only have the one case study (ourselves) to glean from, and biological evolution took billions of years.   We have no idea whether this the norm, a relatively short (or long) time, if evolution of a species to a level of consciousness is inevitable or just a freak occurrence.

And with that I wish a good night to you and everyone else on watmm except diatoms

[Guest]

 

[cwmbrancity]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:01 PM, BobDobalina said:

Just hoping to create some constructive dialogue (and not trying to be a dick!), but i can think of a lot of reasons why advanced civilizations and/or their AI aren't permeating the galaxy/universe.  Since the big bang, everything that has come to be has done so through a series of emergences.  The broth of post-bang radiation condensing into matter; this matter then spread unfathomably thin through the early universe (due to it just barely winning out over antimatter by way of quantum fluctuations); this matter then collapsing into the first generations of galaxies and stars (member, still no elements heavier than lithium yet)... fast forward to the emergence of carbon-based structures that, under the right conditions, have the affinity to self-organize and replicate; the emergence of carbon-based "life" itself, and some 13+ billion years later, the emergence of one, self-aware species on this planet capable of abstract thought (but that really still loves to fling poo though).

My question then is how could a hypothetical advanced intelligence come to be without going through a similar series of emergences?  What possible shortcuts are there?  It stands to reason that if any > Type 1 civilizations do exist out there, they would have had to have gone through (and emerged from) a less enlightened state.  Going off our sample set of one (1), all of these emergences take shitloads of time and there are no guarantees that the big 'uns beyond us are even surmountable.

Srooy for the TLDR, this Kurzgesagt video and it's staircase/hurdle analogy does a good (probably better) job of expaining what I'm trying to get at:

 

Ok, it's Sunday, just racked up a roast & ton of roast veg & sofknstoooooooooned

From this human's perspective, you're not factoring in the masses of space & the facultative fact that even 3 billion years (eg: like the approx age of the Earth) is a fkn long time. Equally, the whole UAF/UFO/UVF "realm" could explain the Fermi Paradox.

Consciousness is emergent, time sort of is too despite entropy. So when this consciousness drives up to the international dark sky zones, gets stoned & looks out into the heavens, the sheer weight of time, space, stoned & unstoned collide into a waveform function collapse of "surely we ain't alone, be a big waste of space just like galactic scale golf courses or pool tables" to use a spherically-themed analogy

granted there are stoned gaps in logic/maths & yes i can't prove any of it, but when you see something uncanny in the skies like i did with a mate, who described the exact same things in real time 2 yards away in broad daylight, i consider myself lucky not have been a UFO boffin b4 the sighting like he was

whether other life forms = doom, or its just billions of light years of empty real estate, still fun to conjecture

[Candiru]

Get yo probes out ma butt you lil commie pinko bastards. 

[cwmbrancity]

4 minutes ago, Candiru said:

Get yo probes out ma butt you lil commie pinko bastards. 

let me add to your problems Mr Candy, with who exactly Jeremy Corbellend is, not that being so close to Jeremy Corbyn by name was enough:

Spoiler

is she dead? was she slipped some Cosby pills by Bob Lazaar, we'll never know, that neck-wear doe....

and blatantly some kind of christian militancy agenda too, feel the pain alien heathens

and such agendas only became apparent after google imaging that whateverthefuck haircut of today

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jeremy+corbell+haircut&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjCtri4rIjlAhXHX8AKHd38D2QQ_AUIESgB&biw=1366&bih=604

[prdctvsm]

iFrikkin' luv flying triangles ((::

 

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by prdctvsm
. . ʇ̴̟̺̣̟̘̻̓̀̏͗͟͢͠ǹ̵̛̩̥̜͕͙͈̑͑́̓̀̚͜͞ʍ̷̢͍̖̰̱̩͚̫̮́̋̊̀̃͆̓̃̐͟͡ ʍ̸̣̬̹͍̜̌̍͐̎̈͟͞͝ó̴̢̺̪̩̥̊̽̀̍͟ṳ͚̣̜̮͚͇͖͙͎̍̈̾̄̒̚͡ . .

[YEK]

it's all just a hypnagogic hallucination, maaaaan.

[prdctvsm]

^ mbe, &/or mbe not.

hmmm 

[brian trageskin]

22 hours ago, prdctvsm said:

 

 

sky lanterns (most probably)

[Silent Member]

UFOs until proven otherwise.