Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[doublename]

What country is jev from? For some reason I assumed the Xmas Island thing to be a joke.

[Guest WNS000]

 

 

 

 

 

Discussing practical decisions (decided by a man responsible for the whole country) in critical situations with modern-day Americans. How could I be so dumb.

 

OK, here is a bonus:

 

Atomic bombing of Japan was perfectly justified and more humane solution than plan B.

 

So was forced leave of Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia (except for the killing and raping which was sick and unnecessary).

 

Waiting for more "WTF, OMG, wow" reactions.

Throwing the majority of US citizens who looked Asian into camps sounds far from practical in more ways than one.

 

 

It was very practical because they didn't have to individually control each of 120 000 people.

 

If I am not mistaken, Asians are doing well in USA today and Japan is doing well too. Or was there a significant negative impact for the USA after the camps?

 

 

I mean, the whole point of a document like the US Constitution is to protect Human Rights/Civil Liberties from abuses made in the name of expedience.

 

As for the legacy of the camps, the Japanese are a tiny slice of the Asian-American population, so it's hard to say how their internment in particular affected the AA community overall (there are ~18 Million Asian-Americans and ~750,000 Japanese-Americans). The worst impact of the camps is probably the precedent they set for the War on Terror, honestly.

 

Whatever the lasting effects were, American citizens lost their homes, jobs, businesses and lives because of the internment program. The Japanese were an easy target because there were so few of them; Italians and Germans (arguably a bigger threat) were never subject to anything of this sort.

 

 

Italians a threat? No. A completely different mentality from Japanese at that time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans

 

Much lower numbers but still.

 

 

Re: Italians - Italian-American fascists were definitely less prominent than German American ones, but they were still present here. Would it not have been practical to treat them as the Japanese were treated?

 

Re: The Japanese - You are talking about Japanese-Americans as if they had been subject to a lifetime of propaganda and conditioning in Imperial Japan. These people were shop owners and farmers in the Southwest.

 

Re: German internment - Almost all of the Germans detained were German-born though, and many of them relocated had been subject to investigation beforehand. I don't approve of detaining anyone on ethnic/racial grounds, but that's entirely different from detaining people born here because their parents or grandparents were born in Japan.

 

Those numbers also argue in favor of the camps being fundamentally racist (or the US intelligence being fundamentally incompetent), since the most successful acts of espionage carried out in this country were committed by Germans. Yet only 1/10 as many Germans were detained.

 

 

Interesting, relevant points.

 

I would guess that American society of that day expected Japanese to be a bigger threat than Italians (which is said to be confirmed in the government documents) and Germans.

 

Another reason why they decided to intern Italians and Germans selectively was that they were living in much bigger numbers in USA and it would be very difficult to intern them all (while risking the non-interned part of their communities would react aggressively in a reaction for the internment of their mates, maybe?).

 

I also agree racism (and therefore fear) could play a significant part in the decision making.

 

I still think it was a safe decision made by the government though. It was the mindset at that time. I cannot blame them for deciding like that. Japanese were hardly friendly to Americans too. It was from both sides (Japanese in Japan, not American Japanese).

[Guest WNS000]

I have also read an opinion that because Japan was able to attack USA the government didn't want to risk having Japanese spies selecting exact targets for Japanese air units.

[sheatheman]

all human beings are evil but we should resist it and strive for good

 

also, think for yourself, break out of the binary systems forced upon you

 

know that the governance of YOURSELF by YOURSELF is what you have most control over and is your chief vehicle for affecting the world around you

[WeAreOceans]

furries did 9/11

[doublename]

BLANK I CAN'T CHILL RIGHT NOW

[Guest]

wtf is even happening to this place....

 

used to be about the the lulz & the idmz, but mainly the lulz

but now every other thread is full of absurdly idiotic bullshit.

 

how can this happen?

 

jeez Jev, I hope someone sticks you in a "camp" for a day or two for real.

[doublename]

"In societies reduced to blur and glut, terror is the only meaningful act."

 

m8, terrorism has replaced art and lulz forever

[Guest WNS000]

wtf is even happening to this place....

 

used to be about the the lulz & the idmz, but mainly the lulz

but now every other thread is full of absurdly idiotic bullshit.

 

how can this happen?

 

jeez Jev, I hope someone sticks you in a "camp" for a day or two for real.

 

I hope, you never got sticked in a camp for a day or two for real.

[Joyrex]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Discussing practical decisions (decided by a man responsible for the whole country) in critical situations with modern-day Americans. How could I be so dumb.

 

OK, here is a bonus:

 

Atomic bombing of Japan was perfectly justified and more humane solution than plan B.

 

So was forced leave of Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia (except for the killing and raping which was sick and unnecessary).

 

Waiting for more "WTF, OMG, wow" reactions.

Throwing the majority of US citizens who looked Asian into camps sounds far from practical in more ways than one.

 

 

It was very practical because they didn't have to individually control each of 120 000 people.

 

If I am not mistaken, Asians are doing well in USA today and Japan is doing well too. Or was there a significant negative impact for the USA after the camps?

 

 

I mean, the whole point of a document like the US Constitution is to protect Human Rights/Civil Liberties from abuses made in the name of expedience.

 

As for the legacy of the camps, the Japanese are a tiny slice of the Asian-American population, so it's hard to say how their internment in particular affected the AA community overall (there are ~18 Million Asian-Americans and ~750,000 Japanese-Americans). The worst impact of the camps is probably the precedent they set for the War on Terror, honestly.

 

Whatever the lasting effects were, American citizens lost their homes, jobs, businesses and lives because of the internment program. The Japanese were an easy target because there were so few of them; Italians and Germans (arguably a bigger threat) were never subject to anything of this sort.

 

 

Italians a threat? No. A completely different mentality from Japanese at that time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans

 

Much lower numbers but still.

 

 

Re: Italians - Italian-American fascists were definitely less prominent than German American ones, but they were still present here. Would it not have been practical to treat them as the Japanese were treated?

 

Re: The Japanese - You are talking about Japanese-Americans as if they had been subject to a lifetime of propaganda and conditioning in Imperial Japan. These people were shop owners and farmers in the Southwest.

 

Re: German internment - Almost all of the Germans detained were German-born though, and many of them relocated had been subject to investigation beforehand. I don't approve of detaining anyone on ethnic/racial grounds, but that's entirely different from detaining people born here because their parents or grandparents were born in Japan.

 

Those numbers also argue in favor of the camps being fundamentally racist (or the US intelligence being fundamentally incompetent), since the most successful acts of espionage carried out in this country were committed by Germans. Yet only 1/10 as many Germans were detained.

 

 

Interesting, relevant points.

 

I would guess that American society of that day expected Japanese to be a bigger threat than Italians (which is said to be confirmed in the government documents) and Germans.

 

Another reason why they decided to intern Italians and Germans selectively was that they were living in much bigger numbers in USA and it would be very difficult to intern them all (while risking the non-interned part of their communities would react aggressively in a reaction for the internment of their mates, maybe?).

 

I also agree racism (and therefore fear) could play a significant part in the decision making.

 

I still think it was a safe decision made by the government though. It was the mindset at that time. I cannot blame them for deciding like that. Japanese were hardly friendly to Americans too. It was from both sides (Japanese in Japan, not American Japanese).

 

Where have you read that Japanese Americans (Japanese living here in the States, and the ones put in those camps) were "hardly friendly"? Quite the opposite I have read. It's no better than Trump saying we should deport all the Muslims and not prevent any refugees from entering.

[Silent Member]

Holy shit this thread oh my god fuck

Edited March 24, 2016 by Gocab

[Nebraska]

https://youtu.be/NXUhcVWOyuI

[triachus]

What country is jev from?

I don't know, but he sure as fuck is white.

[Guest WNS000]

 

 

 

Interesting, relevant points.

 

I would guess that American society of that day expected Japanese to be a bigger threat than Italians (which is said to be confirmed in the government documents) and Germans.

 

Another reason why they decided to intern Italians and Germans selectively was that they were living in much bigger numbers in USA and it would be very difficult to intern them all (while risking the non-interned part of their communities would react aggressively in a reaction for the internment of their mates, maybe?).

 

I also agree racism (and therefore fear) could play a significant part in the decision making.

 

I still think it was a safe decision made by the government though. It was the mindset at that time. I cannot blame them for deciding like that. Japanese were hardly friendly to Americans too. It was from both sides (Japanese in Japan, not American Japanese).

 

Where have you read that Japanese Americans (Japanese living here in the States, and the ones put in those camps) were "hardly friendly"? Quite the opposite I have read. It's no better than Trump saying we should deport all the Muslims and not prevent any refugees from entering.

 

 

I have written exactly the opposite. Japanese in Japan were hardly friendly, not Japenese Americans in America (I have no info about Japanese Americans attitude towards Americans).

 

I am for helping the refugees btw.

 

 

What country is jev from?

I don't know, but he sure as fuck is white.

 

 

What does it have to do with my opinions? I also consider forced leave of Sudeten Germans to be justified. Does that classify me as "white" too? Or anti-fascist? Anti-german? Or maybe Russian? Or what?

 

From a military/strategical point of view, the internment of Japanese Americans was a rational, safe decision. It wasn't a decision without innocent victims (I am not aware of any unnatural deaths or torture in the camps btw) but such is life when a freaking world war is going on. I am sorry for innocent Japanese Americans but I am also sorry for innocent people of Dresden, innocent people of Hiroshima, innocent Sudeten Germans and all of the innocent people in the world at that time. They all were victims because somebody had to decide between multiple bad choices according to his/her priorities.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Jev

[doublename]

 

 

What country is jev from?

I don't know, but he sure as fuck is white.

 

(I am not aware of any unnatural deaths or torture in the camps btw)

 

Depends how you define "unnatural": people of all ages were warehoused in a overcrowded desert facilities with limited access to medical care and no indoor plumbing (at first). No one can say how elderly/ill prisoners would have fared with access to hospitals, etc.

 

There were also a number of people shot trying to "escape", but I can't find an exact number.

 

Even healthy people would have struggled with these conditions though:

 

"In desert camps, the evacuees met severe extremes of temperature. In winter it reached 35 degrees below zero, and summer brought temperatures as high as 115 degrees." - Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

 

"At Gila, there were 7,700 people crowded into space designed for 5,000. They were housed in messhalls, recreation halls, and even latrines. As many as 25 persons lived in a space intended for four." - Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

Edited March 24, 2016 by doublename

[Ivan Ooze]

did i say death camps, i meant happy camps

[KovalainenFanBoy]

[Guest WNS000]

 

 

 

What country is jev from?

I don't know, but he sure as fuck is white.

 

(I am not aware of any unnatural deaths or torture in the camps btw)

 

Depends how you define "unnatural": people of all ages were warehoused in a overcrowded desert facilities with limited access to medical care and no indoor plumbing (at first). No one can say how elderly/ill prisoners would have fared with access to hospitals, etc.

 

There were also a number of people shot trying to "escape", but I can't find an exact number.

 

Even healthy people would have struggled with these conditions though:

 

"In desert camps, the evacuees met severe extremes of temperature. In winter it reached 35 degrees below zero, and summer brought temperatures as high as 115 degrees." - Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

 

"At Gila, there were 7,700 people crowded into space designed for 5,000. They were housed in messhalls, recreation halls, and even latrines. As many as 25 persons lived in a space intended for four." - Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

 

 

To my knowledge, elderly and ill Japanese Americans (Germans, Italians) were excluded from the internment.

 

"The WRA recorded 1,862 deaths across the ten camps, with cancer, heart disease, tuberculosis, and vascular disease accounting for the majority."

 

I don't try to deny that the conditions were bad and it certainly wasn't easy for a person living in a standard comfort to adapt to those conditions. I am definitely not trying to disparage the suffering the people had to withstand after being interned. They have lost their jobs, education, they got stressed out (possible long-term psychological consequences) etc. Yes the conditions certainly were horrible. I could not agree with such standards. Dunno if they got better with time. I presume the camps were built in hurry.

 

I have read only about shootings on Germans trying to escape the internment. Don't have info about Japanese Americans.

Jev, have you ever heard of the secret, totally rad art of...

*puts on sunglasses*

...being chill?

 

Yes I did. But it doesn't seem to work without drugs or without being chilled in the first place.

[marf]

you think our RULERS are part of a secret society born out of the Ivy League universities? It seems like only THEY get a pass.

[eugene]

jev is a mess.

[luke viia]

*airhorn*

[sweepstakes]

Holy fuck, I bike into the thread to get my Bernie fix and get 2 screenfuls of weird autistic racism? Jev, I thought you were just misunderstood, but some of the shit you said here would make Trump blush. I don't know what you do to relax but please, go do that for a while.

[chenGOD]

Phoenix has one polling place for every 108,00 voters. http://nyti.ms/1VLAXhF

WTF?

[doublename]

The dark arts

[Guest WNS000]

Holy fuck, I bike into the thread to get my Bernie fix and get 2 screenfuls of weird autistic racism? Jev, I thought you were just misunderstood, but some of the shit you said here would make Trump blush. I don't know what you do to relax but please, go do that for a while.

 

Care to elaborate what I said so shockingly controversial that "would make Trump blush"? I am not a Trump supporter. I am just having a honest discussion. Not to mention that I have multiple times expressed my empathy with the victims of the internment and tried to explain my position. I guess WATMM community still considers me to be a troll that enjoys pissing off people no matter what I actually post and explain.

 

It is very difficult to reflect on my own opinions/decisions if a feedback I get is "jev is a mess", "Get that fucking racist, immoral, vile worthless shit out of this thread & WATMM. Now.", "jesus christ jev", "that's autism, folks.", "you don't understand people and attach no value to human life", "jeez Jev, I hope someone sticks you in a "camp" for a day or two for real.".

 

All that reactions without me attacking anybody. I just genuinely asked questions and expressed opinions about, apparently, a sensitive issue.

 

The only guy giving a worthy input based on arguments was doublename (who I thank for that, because it was actually enriching and made me think).

 

People here often try to create an illusion of maturity and rationality but yet they are into cyber-bullying and personal attacks quite a lot when somebody expresses an opinion they don't like. As I said before, I understand there is this sharp WATMM style (which can be admittedly very funny and unique in right moments and doses) but I sometimes feel it is a bit too much. I sometimes genuinely feel depressed or hurt that discussions about controversial topics are such a problem for a community about which I think is based on interesting and clever people (yes, I really believe this). WATMM can be sometimes quite cruel to individuals IMO. Too much ego.

 

How can one think about/solve difficult issues (in general, not that I am hoping to change the world here) if there is no discussion about them? The exchange of opinions (however sensitive) is developing a person.

 

I am not denying Holocaust, for Christ's sake.

 

TLDR:

 

You (plural) are overreacting.