ignatius Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Candiru said: I think a lot of things like police brutality or anecdotal stories you hear from black people and think “... oh shit” are really effects of the war on drugs and how it started the trend of treating some American citizens as enemies. Race might be too narrow of a thing to focus on, but the effects of our history linger. I have no idea if that makes sense. Nixon specifically started the war on drugs as a way to target black people. one hand definitely knew what the other hand was doing.. these consequences were always intended. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 great discussion about the Haitian Slave Revolution and its influence and implications on US indigenous/black/poc liberation as well as eurocentric hegemony of enlightenment era thought despite it being literally inferior to that of the Haitian slaves in the area of human dignity and liberationhttps://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/the-haitian-revolution 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, chenGOD said: The "far-right extremists doing drive-by shootings" theory has been dismissed in the first shooting, and is still only a theory in the second shooting. And I find it very interesting that the CHOP Solidarity Committee feels the need to have centralized control of security forces for efficiencies. As well blaming capitalism for shooting someone is about as accurate as blaming violent video games (not at all). The BS I was referring to though, is that people in the zone seem to want to defund the police, but not understand the consequences of those actions. Medics and firefighters do not go into unsecured situations anywhere. I'm not arguing against putting in place de-escalation techniques, or reducing the paramilitary culture in the police, but to simply say "we don't want police anywhere any time" is not a viable argument. you mean that first shooting where the dude drove his car into the back of the protest group with a gun with extra magazines taped to the sides, shot someone, then ran to the police line for safety who took him in gently without a moment of manhandling, then he ended up conveniently being a relative of a member of that police precinct? https://komonews.com/news/local/prosecutors-man-who-shot-protester-on-capitol-hill-provoked-incident pretty clear who is provoking this and what their intentions are, and it's not the fault of the CHOP residents who are being victimized by this violence. victim blaming like this is pathetic. the cops and these murderers are a part of the same ideological group ""The 31-year-old Seattle resident has not been charged but is being held on investigation of assault after a King County Superior Court judge Monday set his bail at $150,000 — half of what prosecutors asked — based on his ties to the community and inability to pay, according to the King County Prosecutor’s office." I wonder what those ties to the community are that got his bail halved, lmfao, maybe being a relative to the dirty worthless pigs who the judges work for? "fearing for his life" yeah fearing for his life so much he pre-emptively brought a gun with extra magazines taped to the sides Anyway give me a break with your far right apologism, or unfortunately rather centrism Edited June 23, 2020 by cyanobacteria 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hijexx Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-dismantle-chaz-protest-zone RIP CHAZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said: you mean that first shooting where the dude drove his car into the back of the protest group with a gun with extra magazines taped to the sides, shot someone, then ran to the police line for safety who took him in gently without a moment of manhandling, then he ended up conveniently being a relative of a member of that police precinct? https://komonews.com/news/local/prosecutors-man-who-shot-protester-on-capitol-hill-provoked-incident pretty clear who is provoking this and what their intentions are, and it's not the fault of the CHOP residents who are being victimized by this violence. victim blaming like this is pathetic. the cops and these murderers are a part of the same ideological group ""The 31-year-old Seattle resident has not been charged but is being held on investigation of assault after a King County Superior Court judge Monday set his bail at $150,000 — half of what prosecutors asked — based on his ties to the community and inability to pay, according to the King County Prosecutor’s office." I wonder what those ties to the community are that got his bail halved, lmfao, maybe being a relative to the dirty worthless pigs who the judges work for? "fearing for his life" yeah fearing for his life so much he pre-emptively brought a gun with extra magazines taped to the sides Anyway give me a break with your far right apologism, or unfortunately rather centrism Wasn’t the first shooting the one where the kid died? If not then I’ve got the order of those shootings confused. Your link doesn’t say anything about him being related to the police. So uhh yeah I guess because you said so? I mean great sense of justice there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watmmisdead Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 8 hours ago, ignatius said: many people will argue that the entire criminal justice system is racist. i wouldn't disagree w/that personally. sure there's been lot's of progress but still a long long long way to go imo. "historical consequences of past racism" is just splitting hairs really.. call it whatever you want. we've yet to overcome those consequences as a culture and society. you don't have to look far to find many instances of racist policies being carried out by government departments. it's not long ago there were 'sundown' laws in lot's of places that made it illegal for black people or chinese people etc to be out after sun down. defund the police is insane and dangerous. How can anyone defend that non-sense. Police need more combat style training and de-escalation drills, and the fact that to become a policeman takes 3 months at the academy is truly bizarre. here in canada it takes 3 years to be a cop. I feel that its the USA prison and justice system that is the problem. Monetarized prisons and a justice system that seem way to happy to put non-violent people in prisons for petty offends, non payed tickets and drug posession. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, chenGOD said: Wasn’t the first shooting the one where the kid died? If not then I’ve got the order of those shootings confused. Your link doesn’t say anything about him being related to the police. So uhh yeah I guess because you said so? I mean great sense of justice there. oops I posted the wrong link. this one's june 7 https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/his-brother-works-here-at-this-precinct-police-say-capitol-hill-protest-shooting-suspect-was-fearing-for-his-life/ this part is also an anecdotal memory of mine, but in a discussion thread on a livestream video of the shooter, some people pointed out that his gun jammed due to unsupported recoil (not sure on the technical term) after his initial shot, and that this was likely why he didn't continue the massacre which his extra magazines taped to the guns suggested he was planning Edited June 23, 2020 by cyanobacteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 9 hours ago, caze said: there's a very real difference between institutional racism (where laws are explicitly prejudicial), and very hard to understand 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) order social and cultural things. it's important to distinguish the two. most of the modern anti-racism stuff you see in this activism and from academic sources is grossly oversimplified and lacking in empirical justification. just a point of critique. institutional racism goes beyond what the law says. there's also the stuff which could be summarised under "policies and procedures". or standard practise, of you will. even with perfect laws, institutions could show signs of institutional racism just by how they operate. hypothetical example: if the law says stealing is illegal, but the police only (systematically?) goes after people of a certain race, there could be a bit of institutional racism involved. nothing wrong with the law. and potentially something wrong with policies and procedures. other than that: yeah public discussions are mostly oversimplified. By definition. That's how language works. It's inescapable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 4 hours ago, hijexx said: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-dismantle-chaz-protest-zone RIP CHAZ goddamnit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soloman Tump Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 i've read some dangerous stuff posted online like "close all prisons" wtf you gonna do with the rapists and murderers then? Not everyone can be put through a rehab course and listening circle and come out an angel. There are some scum on this planet - tis human nature. Just a shame that some of them got jobs in wrong places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, Soloman Tump said: i've read some dangerous stuff posted online like "close all prisons" wtf you gonna do with the rapists and murderers then? Not everyone can be put through a rehab course and listening circle and come out an angel. There are some scum on this planet - tis human nature. Just a shame that some of them got jobs in wrong places. few people want to let everyone out of prison. its an extended process where the underlying conditions causing these types of crimes are fixed fixed. and the majority of people in prison in the US are there for bullshit reasons, like petty drug crimes. you could shut down most of the prisons and not have any decrease in public safety, in fact it would increase public safety if you fire cops proportionally too since they wont fucking kill and harass as many people 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 36 minutes ago, goDel said: just a point of critique. institutional racism goes beyond what the law says. there's also the stuff which could be summarised under "policies and procedures". or standard practise, of you will. even with perfect laws, institutions could show signs of institutional racism just by how they operate. by institutional racism I'm talking about that which is perpetuated directly by institutions, like the police, or government, social services, education system, etc. you're correct, the law isn't the sum total of it, I didn't mean to suggest that it was (should have put an 'eg' before 'laws'). by structural racism I mean the more broadly scoped context within which institutions and society in general interact, which are by their nature far more complicated and hard to understand. my point was to differentiate the two, and note that in the US the problems with the former have been mostly resolved (in terms of racism, there are still plenty of institutional problems, they're just not of a specifically racial character), the problems with the latter are harder to justify empirically (in a primarily racist sense), because multiple causal factors are at play. e.g. failings in policing and criminal justice may disproportionately affect black communities, but it still effects everyone, the laws and 'policies and procedures' at play are not inherently racist, and one of the main reasons for the disproportionality is the increased levels of criminality in black communities, which in turn is partly caused by socioeconomic factors which were a result of the institutional racism of previous generations. pragmatic solutions to these problems don't need to revolve around race in any serious way, if the real culprit was institutional racism, and we solved it, then we'd just end up with a situation where unarmed black civilians were being murdered by police proportionately to unarmed white civilians - this wouldn't seem like much of victory to me. you can kill two birds with one stone by focusing on the general, non-racial, institutional failings, without resorting to philosophically unsound and divisive identitarianism. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkface Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 12 hours ago, chenGOD said: The "far-right extremists doing drive-by shootings" theory has been dismissed in the first shooting, and is still only a theory in the second shooting. And I find it very interesting that the CHOP Solidarity Committee feels the need to have centralized control of security forces for efficiencies. As well blaming capitalism for shooting someone is about as accurate as blaming violent video games (not at all). The BS I was referring to though, is that people in the zone seem to want to defund the police, but not understand the consequences of those actions. Medics and firefighters do not go into unsecured situations anywhere. I'm not arguing against putting in place de-escalation techniques, or reducing the paramilitary culture in the police, but to simply say "we don't want police anywhere any time" is not a viable argument. Neighbourhoods without police only work with strong trust and a community that knows each other well, like the Exarchia neighbourhood in Athens which isn't some kind of free for all like the CHOP/CHAZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, caze said: by institutional racism I'm talking about that which is perpetuated directly by institutions, like the police, or government, social services, education system, etc. you're correct, the law isn't the sum total of it, I didn't mean to suggest that it was (should have put an 'eg' before 'laws'). by structural racism I mean the more broadly scoped context within which institutions and society in general interact, which are by their nature far more complicated and hard to understand. ... fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Sorry but what? https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/nooses-oakland-park-exercise-aids-man-71314468 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candiru Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 The very idea of Shaun King sounds like a Farrelly Brothers movie or something. But it's real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 22 hours ago, Ayya Khema said: defund the police is insane and dangerous. How can anyone defend that non-sense. Police need more combat style training and de-escalation drills, and the fact that to become a policeman takes 3 months at the academy is truly bizarre. here in canada it takes 3 years to be a cop. I feel that its the USA prison and justice system that is the problem. Monetarized prisons and a justice system that seem way to happy to put non-violent people in prisons for petty offends, non payed tickets and drug posession. defund the police is more nuanced.. it isn't about getting rid of police entirely (though i'm sure some people are saying that). it's about reallocating funds so police don't have to be social workers, drug addiction interventionists etc etc.. there's all these specialized units in american police.. task force for gun violence, task force for gangs, and on and on.. and many of them are counter productive and target specific neighborhoods over and over again essentially harassing residents. so, "defund" for many people means return to community policing and use funds to provide support services and treatment and opportunity where there is none. sometimes it's a complex effort and sometimes it's a simple thing like funding after school programs, boys and girls cubs of america, YMCA or whatever.. there's a lot of different things that work in different places. these things would be figured out locally since what works in newark NJ might not work south side of chicago or los angeles. basically the idea is to reach young people and give them hope and opportunity.. provide mental health, drug treatment and on and on.. become a less punitive type of society and actually treat people's and societies problems.. and still having cops there do do cop stuff like investigate robbery, sexual assault and violence.. serve warrants. solve actual crimes. when the cops aren't going around being dicks to people they earn trust and w/the help of a community they can be more effective at policing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 22 minutes ago, chenGOD said: Sorry but what? https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/nooses-oakland-park-exercise-aids-man-71314468 the "noose" they found in the one black nascar driver's garage at that race was reported to actually be a rope w/a loop in it attached to the garage door to pull it down to close it. according to the FBI https://www.thedrive.com/news/34315/fbi-noose-found-in-bubba-wallaces-garage-was-a-door-pull-rope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candiru Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Yeah, Nascar has some more Smollett-core. And the nuance of "defund the police" doesn't translate well. The slogan was probably created by controlled opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/heoglu/officers_didnt_bother_to_know_who_or_why_they/ Edited June 24, 2020 by cyanobacteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Candiru said: Yeah, Nascar has some more Smollett-core. And the nuance of "defund the police" doesn't translate well. The slogan was probably created by controlled opposition. i've heard it translated well by lot's of people in the media.. but it's easy to think it means abolish the police which some other people have said. it's why biden said he doesn't support defund the police but then goes on to talk about changing police budgets and having conditions for federal funds and other bullshit that misses that point. 'defund' is going to trigger a lot of people come election time. trump is gonna pound it at the debates i'm sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, ignatius said: the "noose" they found in the one black nascar driver's garage at that race was reported to actually be a rope w/a loop in it attached to the garage door to pull it down to close it. according to the FBI https://www.thedrive.com/news/34315/fbi-noose-found-in-bubba-wallaces-garage-was-a-door-pull-rope That one I can understand, because at least it looked vaguely like a noose - it was an actual hangman's knot, or very close to it.. The ones in oakland don't look anything like that, and the mayor's comments about it being a hate crime regardless of intent (they were put up by a black guy for exercising) are just ridiculous. The NASCAR one, yes glad it wasn't a thing - but I have to say that the response shown by all the drivers was great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 2 hours ago, ignatius said: but it's easy to think it means abolish the police which some other people have said. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) there's a segment saying abolish and the others need to shut them up, imo. they're wasting messaging opportunities while giving ammo to the opposition. matt gaetz of florida and the other disingenuous greed sacks will be happy to conflate rational arguments with an irrational one. they know it's a sleight of hand trick that works on their constituents, especially when amplified without context or correction by the conservative media. Edited June 24, 2020 by very honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 7 hours ago, caze said: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police" _every_ conversation and news story i've read/ heard/seen discusses reallocation of funds and reducing bloated police budgets. the opinion piece you posted is one of a few i've seen that call for outright abolishing police. otherwise there's been a few protestors and far left 'radicals' interviewed who've said they mean 'abolish' when they say defund. right wing media is certainly pushing the defund = abolish message. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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