Black Lives Matter

[prdctvsm]

 

[Nebraska]

 

[ambermonk]

Not to pull the Epstein angle, but...

[chenGOD]

8 hours ago, dingformung said:

Explain to me why they put him into handcuffs in the first place.

Standard arrest procedure. Look, that guy didn’t deserve to die. But the cops were doing their job professionally and treating him with respect up until he chose to run. They arrested him on probable cause. Now if he truly wasn’t drunk, you fight that shit in court. 
This was not Eric Garner, where the cop just threw a choke hold on him for nothing. This was a routine arrest, until it wasn’t. 

5 hours ago, dingformung said:

Every little girl who went to a karate course for half a year could do better

Lol. 

[chenGOD]

6 hours ago, dingformung said:

The cops' job is to deescalate and prevent harm.

This is not the cops job per se. This is the problem that was described very well in a couple of articles that I think Braintree posted. 
Cops are not social workers. Their job (at this level of police work) is to apprehend people who have broken the law. These cops were very measured in their approach and the situation was calm until the fellow decided to run.

That isn't to say that cops should come out guns blazing - of course not. They should be calm and professional - but they should be able to use reasonable and proportionate force.
 

If this guy was drunk/under the influence of drugs behind the wheel of a car I want him arrested. Driving is a privilege, not a right. 
 

Do you honestly think he would have just hopped into the back of a patrol car on his own?   

Again, I'm not excusing the shooting. The guy was running away, so shooting him in the back is not reasonable or proportionate force.

 

5 hours ago, dingformung said:

I dunno either. I just think that the policemen could have done a better job if they were trained to act rationally and competently in situations non-trained people couldn't. To stay on topic, I don't really see the racial aspect of it, though. None of their behaviour made me think their intentions were racially motivated but a mere result of poor training

Absolutely. Although all the training in the world isn’t the same as the real thing. It’s like boxing - you can train against a heavy bag or do ring work for as long as you want. Until someone is hitting you in the face, it’s just exercise. 
 

Like hijexx said, we get the luxury of armchair quarterbacking this thing. Until you’re in the situation, you really don’t know what you’d do. 

[dingformung]

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

9 hours ago, dingformung said:

The cops' job is to deescalate and prevent harm.

This is not the cops job per se.

It maybe isn't their job per se but it was their job in this specific situation. The guy was drugged and they should have known better how to handle him because that's something policemen are trained for. The sole purpose of a police is to reduce harm and provide safety, if you think about it.

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

These cops were very measured in their approach and the situation was calm until the fellow decided to run.

No, the situation was calm until they handcuffed him in a rough way. With a drugged brain being what it is that made him panic.

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Do you honestly think he would have just hopped into the back of a patrol car on his own?  

Of course it's impossible to know for sure but I think the probability would have been higher if he had the knowledge that he doesn't have to fear the police and if they hadn't have shown aggression by handcuffing him and threaten him with tasers. It may be convention to handcuff any suspect in the US but this guy's reptilian brain clearly couldn't go the mental step of rationalising.

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

The guy was running away, so shooting him in the back is not reasonable or proportionate force

Agree

 

[Candiru]

It was a very routine DUI arrest. Then, the guy had this strange sudden impulse to commit suicide by cop. 

[drome]

What we all need now is order out of chaos. Come on elite guys and gals legislate that shit, we’re ready. No, really.

[chenGOD]

6 hours ago, dingformung said:

It maybe isn't their job per se but it was their job in this specific situation. The guy was drugged and they should have known better how to handle him because that's something policemen are trained for. The sole purpose of a police is to reduce harm and provide safety, if you think about it.

10 hours ago, chenGOD said:

These cops were very measured in their approach and the situation was calm until the fellow decided to run.

No, the situation was calm until they handcuffed him in a rough way. With a drugged brain being what it is that made him panic.

10 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Do you honestly think he would have just hopped into the back of a patrol car on his own?  

Of course it's impossible to know for sure but I think the probability would have been higher if he had the knowledge that he doesn't have to fear the police and if they hadn't have shown aggression by handcuffing him and threaten him with tasers. It may be convention to handcuff any suspect in the US but this guy's reptilian brain clearly couldn't go the mental step of rationalising.

 

Look at right up until the moment the guy decides to run. Were the cops overly aggressive or anything except calm and measured? They didn't handcuff him in a rough way, and we don't know if he was drugged or not - and if he was drugged he had clearly broken the law. Now whether or not you agree with that law is a different matter, but cops are there to enforce the law.

Also they didn't threaten him with a taser until after he decided to start fighting. Like what video are you watching? It's convention to handcuff anyone charged. The only reason this got out of hand is because the dude decided to run. That's when the cops needed to exercise restraint, which we're in agreement about. Leading up to that point (even during the struggle the cops were restrained - they could have been beating the shit out of him with batons or something) the cops were acting in a completely reasonable manner.

[dingformung]

Alcohol is a drug.

[chenGOD]

37 minutes ago, dingformung said:

Alcohol is a drug.

One of the worst!

[zero]

14 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Like hijexx said, we get the luxury of armchair quarterbacking this thing. Until you’re in the situation, you really don’t know what you’d do. 

that's it. we can sit back and debate what went wrong and how it should have gone, but when put in the situation they were in with all the stimuli thrown at them at that moment (and that they had to make split second decisions on), we really can't say with 100% certainty we would have responded differently. training and experience are of course what make someone better at their job, and just judging from their looks and how in shock they seemed after, both of these cops appear to not be seasoned veterans.

my take on the shooting is the cop saw the guy pointing and attempting to use the taser on his partner and about to escape, and his brain interpreted it as the cops were about to "lose". I don't believe he was trying to kill him and probably thought he could shoot him in the leg or something, but yeah, wrong decision to pull the gun and fire at that moment. and I also can't help thinking that in that parking lot with numerous people sitting in cars watching the whole thing, the cop probably felt more pressure and didn't want to look like they just got their asses kicked and lost the suspect, so he did anything he could to "win" in that moment.

armchair QB - what he should have done was gotten up, chased him down, and if the suspect outran him then call for backup. 

[Zephyr_Nova]

4 hours ago, dingformung said:

Alcohol is a drug.

Ur luv is a drug.

[Taupe Beats]

12 minutes ago, zero said:

that's it. we can sit back and debate what went wrong and how it should have gone, but when put in the situation they were in with all the stimuli thrown at them at that moment (and that they had to make split second decisions on), we really can't say with 100% certainty we would have responded differently. training and experience are of course what make someone better at their job, and just judging from their looks and how in shock they seemed after, both of these cops appear to not be seasoned veterans.

my take on the shooting is the cop saw the guy pointing and attempting to use the taser on his partner and about to escape, and his brain interpreted it as the cops were about to "lose". I don't believe he was trying to kill him and probably thought he could shoot him in the leg or something, but yeah, wrong decision to pull the gun and fire at that moment. and I also can't help thinking that in that parking lot with numerous people sitting in cars watching the whole thing, the cop probably felt more pressure and didn't want to look like they just got their asses kicked and lost the suspect, so he did anything he could to "win" in that moment.

armchair QB - what he should have done was gotten up, chased him down, and if the suspect outran him then call for backup. 

Nah that's not it. There have been so many retired cops who have come forward and made it known that police training has taken away direct engagement with a detainee in a direct parallel with the rise of firearms in the United States (and by osmosis, everywhere else). Several point blank saying that new police are afraid of *any* physical confrontation with a detainee. That is a terrifying change in police behavior over the years.

Couple that with the fact that non-lethal weaponry for police was a very popular discussion as recent as less than 10 years ago. Now that discussion is a non-starter for police (mainly due to police unions, which are cesspools).

So not even accepting the potential of using weaponry that isn't intended to kill, combined with the "stimuli" you describe being a fear that has been increased directly from a result of police training. That is not a justification for a cop shooting someone running away. 

I'll stop here but yeah, the notion that using a gun is even remotely acceptable in a situation like this when other means haven't been attempted first and there are no bystanders who have been harmed is wrong.

[beerwolf]

Bit of a tangent but I remember when Bourdain visited Glasgow (on The Layover) the general spin of the show was the violent reputation of Glasgow, if memory serves me correctly he met a detective and also some savage wolf bloke who was an expert in unarmed combat against knife attack. 

Though he appreciated the history and reputation of Glasgow he also laughed and made the point that Glasgow on a Saturday night was like a sunny day at Disneyland compared to parts of America.

The UK media is whipping all this up, trying it's best to conjure up a storm that really doesn't exist on anything on the same level as America. So it ends up as what I can see as a bit of farce. Fat racist pigs urinating on statues, Churchill (yawn, yeah he led my Grandfather and the country through WW2 but that was in the past, so lets all move on) and a load of angry leftie anarchists who just hate anyone who doesn't agree with their point of view (just like the far-right they are fighting flol). The media love it all, rubbing their hands with glee.

I swear all of this does is just deflect from the issues at hand. Many, many people from all over the world have come to Britain and thrived beyond belief, and good luck to them. Yet somehow the media are determined to run stories about how racist our country is. Always zeroing in on the negative miniscule percentage of problems. I am sure we could sort  out  our problems if we were determined to do so. And hopefully we can. Whereas America is never going to.

I keep meaning to compile a list of all the people from all the backgrounds I work with. Off the top of my head

English, Irish protestant, Irish Catholic, Indian Sikh, Indian Hindu, Indian Christian, Pakistani Muslim, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Ghana, Kenyan, Jamaican, Polish, Romanian, Iraqi, Iranian, Somalian. That's just off the top of my head I guarantee I could get another half a dozen.

And everyone gets on just fucking great with each other!!

Yeah but you watch the news in your little world and you think the country is at war with each other! It's bullshit. Because in the real world most folks round my way have a level of understanding, education and tolerance. 

(edit I forgot the savage Scots! lol and that was after starting off talking about Glasgow doh!)

Edited June 16, 2020 by beer badger

[hijexx]

As long as we're going deep into the arm chair quarterbacking speculation territory:

* What if the guy running who had just assaulted two police officers and is now fleeing on foot had run to one of the cars in the drive thru and started to assault a bystander and car jack them to escape?

* What if the guy running had a firearm on him and pulled it?

* What if...

We can what if this all day.

[Hugh Mughnus]

4 hours ago, chenGOD said:

5 hours ago, dingformung said:

Alcohol is a drug.

One of the worst!

Can confirm...

[Candiru]

23 minutes ago, beer badger said:

Bit of a tangent but I remember when Bourdain visited Glasgow (on The Layover) the general spin of the show was the violent reputation of Glasgow, if memory serves me correctly he met a detective and also some savage wolf bloke who was an expert in unarmed combat against knife attack. 

Though he appreciated the history and reputation of Glasgow he also laughed and made the point that Glasgow on a Saturday night was like a sunny day at Disneyland compared to parts of America.

The UK media is whipping all this up, trying it's best to conjure up a storm that really doesn't exist on anything on the same level as America. So it ends up as what I can see as a bit of farce. Fat racist pigs urinating on statues, Churchill (yawn, yeah he led my Grandfather and the country through WW2 but that was in the past, so lets all move on) and a load of angry leftie anarchists who just hate anyone who doesn't agree with their point of view (just like the far-right they are fighting flol). The media love it all, rubbing their hands with glee.

I swear all of this does is just deflect from the issues at hand. Many, many people from all over the world have come to Britain and thrived beyond belief, and good luck to them. Yet somehow the media are determined to run stories about how racist our country is. Always zeroing in on the negative miniscule percentage of problems. I am sure we could sort  out  our problems if we were determined to do so. And hopefully we can. Whereas America is never going to.

I keep meaning to compile a list of all the people from all the backgrounds I work with. Off the top of my head

English, Irish protestant, Irish Catholic, Indian Sikh, Indian Hindu, Indian Christian, Pakistani Muslim, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Ghana, Kenyan, Jamaican, Polish, Romanian, Iraqi, Iranian, Somalian. That's just off the top of my head I guarantee I could get another half a dozen.

And everyone gets on just fucking great with each other!!

Yeah but you watch the news in your little world and you think the country is at war with each other! It's bullshit. Because in the real world most folks round my way have a level of understanding, education and tolerance. 

(edit I forgot the savage Scots! lol and that was after starting off talking about Glasgow doh!)

I work with a group of people that is about identical to the diverse cast of characters you listed. Race, or anything like that is never the issue. We’re being fed a metric ton of bullshit that is meant to divide us. It’s all based on Critical Race Theory, an academic form of misguided wokeness that’s getting a bit out of hand and warping people’s minds. And only about 9% of the US electorate really subscribes to it. 

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, Taupe Beats said:

Nah that's not it. There have been so many retired cops who have come forward and made it known that police training has taken away direct engagement with a detainee in a direct parallel with the rise of firearms in the United States (and by osmosis, everywhere else). Several point blank saying that new police are afraid of *any* physical confrontation with a detainee. That is a terrifying change in police behavior over the years.

Couple that with the fact that non-lethal weaponry for police was a very popular discussion as recent as less than 10 years ago. Now that discussion is a non-starter for police (mainly due to police unions, which are cesspools).

So not even accepting the potential of using weaponry that isn't intended to kill, combined with the "stimuli" you describe being a fear that has been increased directly from a result of police training. That is not a justification for a cop shooting someone running away. 

I'll stop here but yeah, the notion that using a gun is even remotely acceptable in a situation like this when other means haven't been attempted first and there are no bystanders who have been harmed is wrong.

Dude, I'm sorry, but no amount of training completely obliterates that lizard brain fight, flight, or freeze reaction. No one is justifying the shooting.

I'm saying it's easy to say what the cop should have done from the luxury of watching it from multiple angles, removed the heat and passion of the situation.

Not to equate sports and the shooting of a man, but even professional athletes, who have done nothing but train for those exact situations, fuck up badly. And while these cops have likely received some training on dealing with a fleeing suspect, how much, how often do they retrain, and how often do they encounter that in the course of their duties? My guess is: not much, rarely if ever, and very rarely. So it's not like this is a daily occurrence for them. Like most cops, their job is 95% mind numbing tedium.

Again, I'm not justifying the shooting: it was wrong, and the cop who shot him should be sentenced to serious jail time. But to simply say that "this cop is an asshole who knew exactly what he was doing when he shot him in the back" is in all probability incorrect, and it's easy to say when you're not there.

TBH: if I were a cop in the states, I would be terrified as well - the gun culture there is batshit outta control.

[Taupe Beats]

Oh I certainly don't think that fight or flight can be eradicated (or should it be, for that matter it's a vital component of human nature).

I should put more emphasis in that post that police don't even attempt to use non-lethal force anymore. Between that and changes to training tactics that have removed more direct engagement.

[hijexx]

4 minutes ago, Taupe Beats said:

police don't even attempt to use non-lethal force anymore

Do you really believe that?

[Taupe Beats]

4 minutes ago, hijexx said:

Do you really believe that?

With the amount of unjustified killing of innocent people by the police in the United States, does that matter? Or do you want to play "gotcha" all day and spot hyperbole in inappropriate places?

[ignatius]

i want to believe.. 

https://www.reddit.com/link/ha7jmr/video/0retbnu4wa551/player?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=autechre&utm_content=t3_ha7jmr

 

[hijexx]

55 minutes ago, Taupe Beats said:

With the amount of unjustified killing of innocent people by the police in the United States, does that matter? Or do you want to play "gotcha" all day and spot hyperbole in inappropriate places?

Yeah it matters what you believe to be the ground truth. If you're reasoning about this with the ground truth that police are just out of control and always turn to the most violent force they can, I would say yeah, that is a hyperbolic position and there is no data to support that ground truth.

[caze]

1 hour ago, Candiru said:

I work with a group of people that is about identical to the diverse cast of characters you listed. Race, or anything like that is never the issue. We’re being fed a metric ton of bullshit that is meant to divide us. It’s all based on Critical Race Theory, an academic form of misguided wokeness that’s getting a bit out of hand and warping people’s minds. And only about 9% of the US electorate really subscribes to it. 

Yeah, it's a load of nonsense. What's worrying is that it's becoming increasingly treated as an objective fact of nature (which is ironic, as these people spend much of their time trying to pretend that objective reality doesn't exist), rather than the sociological theory that it is - which may have some truth to it, but one of the main problems with it is a failure to draw a distinction between aggregate level social problems among different demographic groups (which can have many causal factors aside from race, in fact, class is almost certainly more important than race in most problems), and the interactions between individual people; failure to do so is inherently discriminatory. With the increased spread and unquestioning regurgitation of the associated cult-like jargon it's become more and more difficult to have any kind of nuanced discussion about it though, they'll just write you off as racist, even if you're non-white (in which case you're suffering from 'internalized oppression').

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/14/white-privilege-is-a-lazy-distraction-leaving-racism-and-power-untouched

Now that Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility is top of the best seller lists, maybe more people will start to see it for the empty nonsense that it is? Prior to this most people probably just assumed it was common sense 'racism is bad' stuff, views they already hold. They've never actually engaged with the subject in detail though, and are mostly unaware of the pod-people nature of it.