Marxist thought

[prdctvsm]

the poor then, we agree, require their basic needs met.

their desires however...

[chenGOD]

5 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

capitalism is sure meeting the desires of the poor right.

 

4 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

food water shelter healthcare education safety recreation

So your argument, just to be clear, is that capitalism is failing the poor in their own countries in providing these basic desires (needs)?

[zkom]

10 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

ah finland, among the most privileged capitalist countries in the world.  no wonder you oppose socialism.  you've got yours, so screw everyone else right

I support democratic welfare states everywhere. I think it should be implemented all over the world. Free healthcare, free education, social security, worker's rights, and free speech for everyone.

I'm anti-authoritarian and anti-nationalist and Chinese government is authoritarian and nationalistic so of course I oppose it.

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, zkom said:

I support democratic welfare states everywhere. I think it should be implemented all over the world. Free healthcare, free education, social security, worker's rights, and free speech for everyone.

I'm anti-authoritarian and anti-nationalist and Chinese government is authoritarian and nationalistic so of course I oppose it.

so you're a utopian basically.  you just made something up and said it would be good if it was that way.  do you have a revolutionary plan to achieve this?  do you understand the material implementation of social democracy and why this is impossible? it seems not.

2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

 

So your argument, just to be clear, is that capitalism is failing the poor in their own countries in providing these basic desires (needs)?

were you just born? no fucking shit it's failing

[zkom]

35 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

so you're a utopian basically.  you just made something up and said it would be good if it was that way.  do you have a revolutionary plan to achieve this?  do you understand the material implementation of social democracy and why this is impossible? it seems not.

Getting called a utopian by a self-proclaimed communist is a bit ironic. No, I don't have a revolutionary plan or other dogmatic communist bullshit. Tax the rich, implement controls for stock trading and speculative investments, nationalize basic services, international workers' unions to help workers in developing countries also and not just in western countries, free movement of people, fair trade deals between EU and Africa, forgive debts for developing countries, etc. If that's all utopian then fine.

[zlemflolia]

4 minutes ago, zkom said:

Getting called a utopian by a self-proclaimed communist is a bit ironic. No, I don't have a revolutionary plan or other dogmatic communist bullshit. Tax the rich, implement controls for stock trading and speculative investments, nationalize basic services, international workers' unions to help workers in developing countries also and not just in western countries, free movement of people, fair trade deals between EU and Africa, forgive debts for developing countries, etc. If that's all utopian then fine.

tax the rich through what? bourgeois electoral representative "democracy" that they themselves control?  implement controls for stock trading and speculative investments how? nationalize basic services how? make international workers' unions how? once again no explanation of the how only the "what", and a bunch of whats which are obvious at that and the first initial steps to achieving socialism at best

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm

[dingformung]

7 hours ago, prdctvsm said:

the poor then, we agree, require their basic needs met.

their desires however...

is the sex a basic need?

[Silent Member]

Incels seem to think so 

[dingformung]

they think its a right but thats different from a need

[prdctvsm]

[zero]

13 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

i hope this is sarcasm.  what do you think?  food water shelter healthcare education safety recreation

wha??? Dr. Zeff, you as an expert in human nature should be able to understand the difference between a "want" versus a "need."

here is a little blurb from a kids website that explains:

https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/needs-and-wants/

Quote

Discuss with your child what needs and wants are. Needs are things that a person requires to survive. Needs include air, food, water, clothing and shelter. Wants are things that we would like to have, such as toys and games. Sometimes needs and wants overlap. For example, a person needs food to survive, but he doesn’t need ice cream. Discuss how people often want more than they need and how they must choose between what they need and what they can afford. Explain that this does not mean that you should only buy the things that you need, but you should buy what you need before you buy what you want. Explain how people work to earn money to pay for their needs and wants.

 

so yes, communism may tick all the boxes under the "need" category, but it epically fails when it comes to the "want" category. and this was my point in the post I submitted for your approval earlier. gracias.

[may be rude]

what if we went back to using shells for money

[chenGOD]

7 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

9 hours ago, zkom said:

I support democratic welfare states everywhere. I think it should be implemented all over the world. Free healthcare, free education, social security, worker's rights, and free speech for everyone.

I'm anti-authoritarian and anti-nationalist and Chinese government is authoritarian and nationalistic so of course I oppose it.

so you're a utopian basically.  you just made something up and said it would be good if it was that way.  do you have a revolutionary plan to achieve this?  do you understand the material implementation of social democracy and why this is impossible? it seems not.

10 hours ago, chenGOD said:

 

So your argument, just to be clear, is that capitalism is failing the poor in their own countries in providing these basic desires (needs)?

were you just born? no fucking shit it's failing

Why are you so belligerent? You're asking a person who lives in an actual social democracy why it would be impossible to implement it.

So just to be super duper extra clear because I was born yesterday, you're saying that all capitalist nations are failing in providing the poor in their own countries things like housing, access to quality education, safe drinking water, access to healthcare, worker's rights, social security, and free speech, especially as compared with communism (even though, as you say, communism has never been implemented, but let's say with attempts at implementing communism such as the former USSR, or China up until 1978)? 

I note that wikipedia (garbage source I know) lists China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba as countries in the world where communism is the official state ideology, so maybe they would be good comparisons (even though China is not communist at all in their economic policy).

[zero]

2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Why are you so belligerent?

because arguing online beats having to do actual work! look at all the fun we're having here! 

and remember, continually arguing for argument's sake is a classic tactic of skilled negotiators, such as fuhrer trumpf and the fox noosers. they always win their battles. don't matter they ain't got much of a leg to stand on to defend their position, they know very well how to argue their enemies down to a nub, constantly pulling out a word here or a phrase there completely out of context, which somehow can be used to fit their narrative. 

weird, I think there's someone else who does that, just can't think of who atm...

 

[zlemflolia]

keep supporting an economic system that intentionally keeps a pool of unemployed workers while simultaneously stripping those without money of the right to eat food and have shelter, and keeps workers in the third world underpaid and heavily exploited, barely able to make a decent and dignified life.  the sheltered first world perspective seeps into every anti-communist discussion, and it's beyond annoying.  it's the same as how you can't make a rich person understand the plight of the poor person even within first world countries, similarly you can't make a first world supporter of capitalism understand the plight of those suffering from its imperialism.  it's saddening and disappointing

the richest capitalist nation in the entire world has hundreds of thousands of homeless people, millions of children without proper nutrition or decent educations, millions of voters disenfranchised.  but of course those living in european social democracies love to pretend that america is not only not a good representative of effective capitalism, but an outlier, rather than the representative, the model, the very vanguard of world capitalism.  and yet this country itself cannot guarantee these things for its own people.  the blindness to what is not being provided to the third world workers that uphold it is truly sickening.  the blindness to the exploitation, generational wealth gap, pushed upon the ancestors of slavery, is disgusting and sickening.  when you support capitalism, you support america, because america is capitalism.  capitalism is a global system of exploitation and america is its vanguard.  why else is america currently worrying that if it fails to compete with china currently, its world economic order will fall apart? because that is the truth.

[Freak of the week]

4 hours ago, zero said:

"want" versus a "need."

posting in this thread = need

not posting in this thread = want

[zlemflolia]

why am I so belligerent? why are you supporting a genocidal system.  it's beyond pathetic.  a system intentionally withholding healthcare from poor people, intentionally withholding vaccines to help protect people from a global pandemic that it caused through this very lack of healthcare, to maintain intellectual property rights. even the greatest examples of altruism within capitalism, Bill Gates, is arguing to NOT give the rights to poorer countries to learn how to produce these vaccines themselves, because he knows it will undermine intellectual property rights and decrease profits in the future on the novel aspects of the technology.  this is not a one-off event, it is the nature of capitalism, our permanent future if we don't achieve socialism

so yes i am belligerent because it's life and death.  this conversation on WATMM is nothing but the capitalist shilling i see is simply disgusting, pathetic, infuriating, and inexcusable.  if you're going to use words use the right ones.  if you're having a great life in your capitalist welfare state built upon the colonial exploitation of the greater capitalist system that's fine, but at least admit that you simply don't care about people in the third world.

Edited May 5, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[may be rude]

(marxist-leninist) stalin's genocide was one of the biggest

the (marxist) chinese government's genocide of the uighurs is underway presently

Edited May 5, 2021 by very honest

[Satans Little Helper]

 

[may be rude]

oh hey cambodia's genocide was also communist

@cyanobacteria have you researched ways into north korea?

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said:

america is capitalism.  capitalism is a global system of exploitation and america is its vanguard.  why else is america currently worrying that if it fails to compete with china currently, its world economic order will fall apart? because that is the truth.

This is very myopic thinking.

You still haven't answered my question. It's a straightforward question.

[Braintree]

40 minutes ago, very honest said:

oh hey cambodia's genocide was also communist

You're confusing communism with dictatorships.

[may be rude]

11 minutes ago, Braintree said:

You're confusing communism with dictatorships.

but:

Quote

The Cambodian genocide (Khmer: ហាយនភាពខ្មែរ or ការប្រល័យពូជសាសន៍ខ្មែរ) was the systematic persecution and killing of Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge under the leadership of Communist Party general secretary Pol Pot

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

i don't claim to be an expert on this but i found multiple sources calling the political project communist.

maybe you are confused because communism and dictatorships overlap so much?

Edited May 5, 2021 by very honest

[Braintree]

2 minutes ago, very honest said:

but:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

i don't claim to be an expert on this but i found multiple sources calling the political project communist.

maybe you are confused because communism and dictatorships overlap so much?

Yeah, and the nazis described their party as "national socialists." The Chinese government calls their main party communist. Neither of those are true.d

To put it plainly, when you have a figurehead that's calling the shots (especially when those decisions are made against the interest of its people) then that is not communism. It's not even socialism.

[zkom]

In name Khmer Rouge were the Communist Party of Cambodia but Cambodia and Khmer Rouge are a very complex topic. Khmer Rouge were supported by China and United States of all the possible allies and opposed by Soviet Union and Vietnam and Vietnam finally put the end to the whole shitshow by invading Cambodia. Then there were also the local royalists switching from side to side like the king, who was friend with the Chinese, joining the Khmer Rouge and then all the other foreign players. So just reading about it will make your head hurt if you expect any kind of coherent ideological narrative.