Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[usagi]

18 minutes ago, ignatius said:

that's kinda what i said a little? 

i mean.. everything gets more attention now though doesn't it?  remember kony 2012, what about K-pop fans blocking up websites in the USA to fuck with republicans and support BLM and all kinds of stuff.. 

the world is unquestionably different in some ways. social media can bring attention to and also cause massacres and genocides. 

but yeah.. totally agree.. that geographical location etc makes things different and always has.. that's part of it being 'easier to package' and digest over here. 

also, sometimes other things get suppressed. for a good while yemen was getting coverage here but mostly people shrugged and moved on because the middle east is "supposed to be that way" or something.  also, usa sold arms to saudi who were bombing everything to death over there in the midst of the biggest humanitarian crisis etc etc.. proxy war between iran and saudi or whatever. also people are burned out on middle politics and all that and i think a lot of people have shrugged it off and glazed over thinking it's just 'too complicated' and no one can solve it and yada yada yada. 

idk.. mostly when i see all the atrocities happening in ukraine perpetrated by russia i think about iraq and afghanistan and it's a really complicated feeling.  we (americans) knew we were lied to (many of us did anyways) and knew it was a bullshit war to invade iraq. it was immediately obvious. and anyone who looks even a little bit knows we littered the desert w/uranium depleted rounds causing a generation of birth defects and killed countless civilians... afghanistan obviously doesn't even need explaining as to how any progress there was temporary and how fucked up it is now.. ... 

so, i see russia doing what it's doing and it makes me think "Fuck.. they're doing an america on ukraine" but didn't even have the nerve to go make a case at the UN and lie about white powder and mushroom clouds. 

it sucks. we're at the mercy of psychopaths. 

edit: and obviously iraw and ukraine aren't coparable countries. ukraine is a burgeoning democracy and sadam was a fuckin gbrutal murderous dictator

it's what you said kinda but you stopped short of saying this perception/attitude towards conflict 'over there' vs 'closer to home' is unacceptable. I'm saying firmly that it's unacceptable. people should, if they're not able to address the bias at a systemic level, at least fight their own internal bias. otherwise you just have this selective apathy which contributes to a perpetuation of two unjoinable worlds, a deepening divide which makes all this talk of universal values and a good global order a silly joke. I believe in the potential worth of those things (shared values, a global order that promotes peace, etc) but they're only real insofar as people/nations work to make them real. that means looking beyond your backyard and not being tokenistic.

sidenote about Kony 2012, there was a lot of bullshit around that is not that different to the bullshit western fandom going on around this war right now. the online viral effect around these sorts of things now does more harm than good imo.

[ignatius]

15 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

i didnt in any way defend sadam, only attacked defenses of ukraine's supposed democracy.  if we want to start death counts as some sort of justification to compare countrys' deservingness to have wars started against them let's start with mcdonalds and chevron, nobody's going to endorse a war against them though

nazis arent under every rock, that is true, they wouldn't fit under most rocks, but somehow western media can't take a single picture of ukrainian soldiers without random nazis accidentally getting in the picture, its happening over and over again

so these are canadian nazis fighting in ukraine then? 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/exclusive-so-many-canadian-fighters-in-ukraine-they-have-their-own-battalion-source-says

 

[zlemflolia]

3 minutes ago, ignatius said:

so these are canadian nazis fighting in ukraine then? 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/exclusive-so-many-canadian-fighters-in-ukraine-they-have-their-own-battalion-source-says

 

i have no idea, i never met any of them. canada definitely has nazis though.

yikes:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/03/free-m03.html

Edited March 10, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[Hugh Mughnus]

I just came back to watmm to see what was up here and then this was the first thread I stumbled into.

 

 

I have extended family in Ukraine my grandparents have no contact with, cut off 5 days ago. 

[ignatius]

9 minutes ago, usagi said:

it's what you said kinda but you stopped short of saying this perception/attitude towards conflict 'over there' vs 'closer to home' is unacceptable. I'm saying firmly that it's unacceptable. people should, if they're not able to address the bias at a systemic level, at least fight their own internal bias. otherwise you just have this selective apathy which contributes to a perpetuation of two unjoinable worlds, a deepening divide which makes all this talk of universal values and a good global order a silly joke. I believe in the potential worth of those things (shared values, a global order that promotes peace, etc) but they're only real insofar as people/nations work to make them real. that means looking beyond your backyard and not being tokenistic.

sidenote about Kony 2012, there was a lot of bullshit around that is not that different to the bullshit western fandom going on around this war right now. the online viral effect around these sorts of things now does more harm than good imo.

well said. agreed about virality of things. i was admittedly fishing for examples of that effecting other places and the coverage the west gets. there's too many 24 hour news cycles stacked up for me to recall relevant comparisons. 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by ignatius

[zlemflolia]

2 minutes ago, Hugh Mughnus said:

I just came back to watmm to see what was up here and then this was the first thread I stumbled into.

 

 

I have extended family in Ukraine my grandparents have no contact with, cut off 5 days ago. 

horrible hopefully they can escape. good luck

[ignatius]

4 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

i have no idea, i never met any of them. canada definitely has nazis though.

yikes:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/03/free-m03.html

lols. what a dope. you'd think he'd get some translation going before he jumped in for a photo op. of course canada has nazis and fascists etc.. every place has some. 

anyway..  we can just agree to disagree about ukraine. 

[Hugh Mughnus]

3 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

horrible hopefully they can escape. good luck

Thank you.

 

I've only skimmed but deeply both disturbed and confused at the characterization of the Ukrainian civilians being slaughtered right now as being Nazis, when it's clearly more accurate they're kind of on the receiving end if you're using history as a reference. Anyone want to Reader's Digest this for me please?

Edited March 10, 2022 by Hugh Mughnus

[Hugh Mughnus]

Also I do not have the energy but my weak brain muscle memory is suggesting to me that ilqx herm might be Zeff.

 

[zlemflolia]

1 minute ago, Hugh Mughnus said:

Thank you.

 

I've only skimmed but deeply both disturbed and confused at the characterization of the Ukrainian civilians being slaughtered right now as being Nazis. Anyone want to Reader's Digest this for me please?

i haven't seen a single characterization like that in this thread or anything negative said towards any civilians.  anyway ukraine has a severe nazi problem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

in fact so many nazis in its military that western media keeps accidentally getting Nazis stuck in their photo ops

https://imgur.com/a/6RbDgjc

 

[Hugh Mughnus]

1 minute ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

i haven't seen a single characterization like that in this thread or anything negative said towards any civilians.  anyway ukraine has a severe nazi problem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

in fact so many nazis in its military that western media keeps accidentally getting Nazis stuck in their photo ops

https://imgur.com/a/6RbDgjc

 

57 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

this is just western racism cloaked in ideology.  ukraine isnt a "burgeoning democracy" it's a dictatorship of the bourgeois with nazi apologizing leaders, far right nationalistic tendencies, and nazi infested military endorsed by that same state

[Hugh Mughnus]

Anyways I just dropped by to say hi to everyone. I wasn't trying to start an argument. I prob just read everything wrong.

 

Hope you are all well; most assuredly better than the Ukrainian people of course. 

 

Cheers. 

[zlemflolia]

1 minute ago, Hugh Mughnus said:

Anyways I just dropped by to say hi to everyone. I wasn't trying to start an argument. I prob just read everything wrong.

 

Hope you are all well; most assuredly better than the Ukrainian people of course. 

 

Cheers. 

i would never wish a single bit of harm against any ukrainian people, only against the specific people who are nazis.  your family has my best wishes

[Hugh Mughnus]

Thank you - I hope they are ok. I don't know them personally but I know extended family is very upset. 

If I hear something worth sharing I'll pop back in. Best wishes everyone.

[ignatius]

23 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

i haven't seen a single characterization like that in this thread or anything negative said towards any civilians.  anyway ukraine has a severe nazi problem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

in fact so many nazis in its military that western media keeps accidentally getting Nazis stuck in their photo ops

https://imgur.com/a/6RbDgjc

 

that says that azov is about 2500 members. ukrainian army is about 250,000 give or take.. and bigger now that something like 100,000 ukrainians from abroad returned to ukraine to fight.  

there's a lot of videos and pics on r/ukraine of soldiers w/o patches or nazi symbols. 

btw russia is using mercenaries in ukraine.. their version of blackwater i guess. 

https://pmc-wagner.net

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

apparently they've made beheading videos.. as have azov.  PMC has also killed journalists and as expected all kinds of shitty stuff.. as 'contractors' do.  this provides putin with 'plausible deniability' 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by ignatius

[zlemflolia]

8 minutes ago, ignatius said:

that says that azov is about 2500 members. ukrainian army is about 250,000 give or take.. and bigger now that something like 100,000 ukrainians from abroad returned to ukraine to fight.  

there's a lot of videos and pics on r/ukraine of soldiers w/o patches or nazi symbols. 

btw russia is using mercenaries in ukraine.. their version of blackwater i guess. 

https://pmc-wagner.net

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

apparently they've made beheading videos.. as have azov.  PMC has also killed journalists and as expected all kinds of shitty stuff.. as 'contractors' do.  this provides putin with 'plausible deniability' 

 

azov is only one neo-nazi group.  there are more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

and since zelensky started handing out weapons to anyone who asked for them you can bet every single fascist is armed, assuming they weren't to begin with

[ignatius]

1 minute ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

azov is only one neo-nazi group.  there are more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

and since zelensky started handing out weapons to anyone who asked for them you can bet every single fascist is armed, assuming they weren't to begin with

yeah.. i know there's more than one. russia's invasion will likely strengthen fascist in russia and in ukraine.  but we'll see. time will tell. hard to imagine ukrainians will be in the mood to tolerate fascists if they get through this and can rebuild. 

[Uros]

On 3/9/2022 at 2:12 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

nothing I want or anyone in this thread wants matters.  I want

1. Biden to meet with Putin personally and provide guarantees that NATO expansion will not continue to try to place nukes within uncounterable first striking distance
2. conversion of Ukraine into neutral independent buffer state between Russia and NATO with no more NATO funding of Nazi militias and egging Ukraine into wanting NATO membership
3. Ukrainian guarantees of following Minsk Protocol or letting Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics be independent or joined with Russia
4. De-Nazification of Ukrainian government and military and immediately incarceration of all active Nazis, execution of all Nazis who committed murderous war crimes against civilians during the war
5. Immediate ceasefire and providing material aid to all civilians hurt by this war
6. edit: added in later because someone reminded me, removal of all sanctions from Russia

It's cool though that these senders of good faith and liberators of Ukraine wouldn't need to pay a dime for the infrastructure and lives they have bombed to shit. Only material aid Russian government is giving are bullet tips found inside Ukrainians. Remove sanctions? Damn, why stop there, let's pay their war expenses, because of....NATO?

[zlemflolia]

8 minutes ago, Uros said:

It's cool though that these senders of good faith and liberators of Ukraine wouldn't need to pay a dime for the infrastructure and lives they have bombed to shit. Only material aid Russian government is giving are bullet tips found inside Ukrainians. Remove sanctions? Damn, why stop there, let's pay their war expenses, because of....NATO?

complete russian funded rebuild of all ukrainian infrastructure and recompensation to victim families is definitely needed.  paying russian war expenses is a really bad idea

[Satans Little Helper]

Ehm, lets do this smart and not say Russian need to fund the rebuilding of the ukraine. It's already the case Putin considers Ukraine Russian territory. When he pays the rebuidling of the infrastructure, he no longer has his historical fantasies, he also has the receipts. As he literally paid for it. 

Lets use the international community as a neutral in between please.

(enter misguided discussion on how the international community is not neutral but capitalist and therefore will lead to more expansionism)

Edited March 10, 2022 by Satans Little Helper

[zlemflolia]

22 minutes ago, Satans Little Helper said:

Ehm, lets do this smart and not say Russian need to fund the rebuilding of the ukraine. It's already the case Putin considers Ukraine Russian territory. When he pays the rebuidling of the infrastructure, he no longer has his historical fantasies, he also has the receipts. As he literally paid for it. 

Lets use the international community as a neutral in between please.

(enter misguided discussion on how the international community is not neutral but capitalist and therefore will lead to more expansionism)

receipts isn't really material, it is more propagandistic.  without him paying = he can't claim receipts but ukraine is fixed materially.  with him paying = he can claim receipts, ukraine is fixed materially, and he might try to annex ukraine.  but he might try even without receipts.  im not seeing the difference

[eye]

what are you guys even talking about

[Enthusiast]

5 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

https://imgur.com/a/Dckl6cz

would it surprise you? they are nazis, they have no problem using human shields.  i can't find it but I saw a picture of azov hiding in a kindergarten or preschool or something (had some childrens animal mural painted on the wall).

I’m charitably assuming this is mental illness in effect. 

[Rubin Farr]

[Rubin Farr]