Autechre Musical Theory

[Guest greenbank]

uhh thanks guys, i think i'm actually going to ignore all this and continue on my merry way instead though - i'll learn this shite when i need it.

[kcinsu]

if you didn't want answers, don't use question marks.

[Dementia]

For electronic music, knowing a lot about the science of sounds is very important too I think, like more than just how to put music together but how to form really amazing sounds, like the way sounds can effect the human mind.

 

explain

 

Psychoacoustics

[Guest greenbank]

if you didn't want answers, don't use question marks.

 

well i went and listened to some music made by people who understand music theory and then realised it doesn't help make good music.

[pcock]

lol

[oyster]

well i went and listened to some music made by people who understand music theory and then realised it doesn't help make good music.

 

That's not really true at all... knowing music theory will REALLY help you with making the best music you possibly can...I don't understant what you mean it doesn't help.

[Braintree]

if you didn't want answers, don't use question marks.

 

well i went and listened to some music made by people who understand music theory and then realised it doesn't help make good music.

 

Yeah, dude. Bach sucks

[kcinsu]

if you didn't want answers, don't use question marks.

 

well i went and listened to some music made by people who understand music theory and then realised it doesn't help make good music.

 

I swear to god, the subject of musical education is as touchy as the subject of penis size.

 

Of course a musical education does not equal awesome music. No one claimed it did.

But neither does no musical education.

 

Music has been around for thousands of years, and has been studied and formalized for hundreds of years. It is a resource, that quite frankly I think people would be silly to ignore. Music is a part of society and culture, and turning your back on those, and the past, is rather arrogant and short sighted in my opinion.

 

You don't need an education in many things to achieve them... but more often then not, an education in that field will accelerate your learning, open your mind to new concepts that you may never have stumbled across, and allow you to do exactly what it is you want to do, without ambiguity or uncertainty.

 

I could go on, but I really don't have the energy. Do what you want. It's just simplistic statements like yours piss me off.

 

And besides, you asked questions, so people answered. Why bother if you didn't want to know in the first place?

[Guest greenbank]

I swear to god, the subject of musical education is as touchy as the subject of penis size.

 

Of course a musical education does not equal awesome music. No one claimed it did.

But neither does no musical education.

 

Music has been around for thousands of years, and has been studied and formalized for hundreds of years. It is a resource, that quite frankly I think people would be silly to ignore. Music is a part of society and culture, and turning your back on those, and the past, is rather arrogant and short sighted in my opinion.

 

You don't need an education in many things to achieve them... but more often then not, an education in that field will accelerate your learning, open your mind to new concepts that you may never have stumbled across, and allow you to do exactly what it is you want to do, without ambiguity or uncertainty.

 

I could go on, but I really don't have the energy. Do what you want. It's just simplistic statements like yours piss me off.

 

And besides, you asked questions, so people answered. Why bother if you didn't want to know in the first place?

 

apparently you're the touchy one, i decided that i'd rather ignore it AFTER asking the questions didn't i? i was curious but then i considered things some more and decided that music theory is in fact irrelevant to my situation. thinking about it further i think i can happily make the statement that learning classic (or any standardised accepted form) of music theory is in fact utterly irrelevant to the process of making music full stop. what's to stop someone learning piano without ever looking at sheet music? nothing! why would learning theory make someone a better player? music theory is categorising and dissecting, it's examining and describing things, giving names to things so that they can be understood by other people, this is entirely unecessayr for dealing with music with your own personal internal ideas. fuck, i'm coming to the realisation that every one who says you need to learn it is completely wrong, don't waste your time, just throw some notes down and get on with it. leave it to the music theorists to paw over what you've done later. i'll leave this post at that for th noo and continue to think about this - it's pretty interesting!

[kcinsu]

i was curious but then i considered things some more and decided that music theory is in fact irrelevant to my situation.

 

fair enough. but to make blanket statements about it's uselessness is what I take issue with.

 

thinking about it further i think i can happily make the statement that learning classic (or any standardised accepted form) of music theory is in fact utterly irrelevant to the process of making music full stop. what's to stop someone learning piano without ever looking at sheet music? nothing! why would learning theory make someone a better player?

 

 

It is not irrelevant. Once you understand something, you can then control it better. Again, as I said before, great music has been made by people with no musical education. Also shitty music has been made by people WITH musical educations. The reason for this, is not the education, or lack of... it is simply the talent of the person. But I believe if someone has that inherent talent, that a musical education will allow them to take their ideas even further, and expand their potential.

 

Why would learning theory make someone a better player? I don't think I can even begin to explain to you, but it does. Knowing what you WANT to do, allows you to play it. Every musician I've known that has studied music, has said that it was the theory lessons that made them better players, not insane amount of practice. I can personally say the same in my experience.

 

music theory is categorising and dissecting, it's examining and describing things, giving names to things so that they can be understood by other people, this is entirely unecessayr for dealing with music with your own personal internal ideas.

 

This is just absolutely wrong. It is so EXTREMELY relevant. Yes, it is about dissecting and understanding things. And no, it is not necessary in the sense that it's impossible to write music with out this... but I am saying it helps, assists, augments, fosters ideas, perspectives and possibilities beyond just "throwing some notes down".

 

You learn about synthesis right? You know what an LFO does? A Filter? You could look at a synth and understand whats happening right? "oh, ok these osc's are tuned this way to give these overtones... ok, this filter is dampaning the sound, and there is an envelope making a slow attack, and long release..." and then you play the sound, and you hear it's results. You understand whats going on, because youve dissected and analyzed what was going on to make that sound possible. So now, when you go and make your own sounds, you have that knowledge that you can apply to your own work. I don't mean copying it, or not having your own unique ideas, but building on that knowledge and expanding on it... understanding the inherent function and structure that you can apply in other ways.

 

And of course you can just twiddle some knobs randomly and get interesting sounds... but what happens when there is a sound in your head that you want, but dont know how to do it? Spend hours twiddling knobs making uninformed choices, or having a solid understanding of how to achieve that sound.

 

Its the exact same thing with music theory.

[zazen]

where can I learn me some 'arguing on the internet' theory?

 

 

(btw, I've heard tunes by both Greenbank and Kcinsu, and liked them both)

[Guest tv_party]

Theory can also be a ticket out of tiresome wagon tracks. A way to give a name to your road and take another. Take it or leave it. Don't throw the baby out etc.

[sneaksta303]

penis size heh

[chim]

listen to kcinsu, he's fucking right. music theory is the map, not the territory. my music knowledge and skill has ONLY improved from reading theory, and its surprisingly easy to learn. i recommend jazz theory in particular, it refreshed my playing and ideas a ton. circle of fifths, extensions, substitutes, augmented and diminished intervals etc etc. jazz theory is like the fucking recipe for an electronic music cake

[Guest hahathhat]

i think you are all missing the fact that different people have different talents. some people are better at logic, and think in terms of theory. some people know it when they hear it (emotional intelligence??) and just find theory aggrivating.

 

i'm good at logicy things, but i usually take that out on computers and synth diy rather than the music itself.

 

this should resolve the argument:

 

 

note rules 6, 8

[Guest bioluminescence]

http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html

[Auditor]

Dredging this old chunk of coal up because I was wondering who here studies theory to any extent. I've had my starts and stops with it more time than I'd like to count, but recently I figured that if I want to devote my life to music then I might as well learn the language a little better. I already know how scales and chords work, so I bought a Schoenberg book on harmony and I remembered why I always stopped at a certain point with theory texts. It is because they all really want you to write down stuff on sheet music. Then I realized, again, that I am a lazy motherfucker and I hate doing that. But, as slow as I am on working out things on the keys, some of this stuff is really invigorating. Learning now about modulating keys and such and it is refreshing. The cool thing about the Schoenberg book is that, throughout the whole text, he disavows most of the rudimentary stuff and restates it as "you should know this at the beginning in order to thoughtfully break the rules later".  

 

Anyways, I would like to get to the point where I know exactly why I'm choosing the sounds that I am, and it seems like theory can help with that. Also, as i mentioned, it seems stupid and lazy to be obsessed with making music and not knowing the fundamental language of it well. 

[thawkins]

Dredging this old chunk of coal up because I was wondering who here studies theory to any extent. I've had my starts and stops with it more time than I'd like to count, but recently I figured that if I want to devote my life to music then I might as well learn the language a little better. I already know how scales and chords work, so I bought a Schoenberg book on harmony and I remembered why I always stopped at a certain point with theory texts. It is because they all really want you to write down stuff on sheet music. Then I realized, again, that I am a lazy motherfucker and I hate doing that. But, as slow as I am on working out things on the keys, some of this stuff is really invigorating. Learning now about modulating keys and such and it is refreshing. The cool thing about the Schoenberg book is that, throughout the whole text, he disavows most of the rudimentary stuff and restates it as "you should know this at the beginning in order to thoughtfully break the rules later".  

 

Anyways, I would like to get to the point where I know exactly why I'm choosing the sounds that I am, and it seems like theory can help with that. Also, as i mentioned, it seems stupid and lazy to be obsessed with making music and not knowing the fundamental language of it well. 

 

(disclaimer: I've studied piano for 11 years and I've got a paper to prove it)

 

So I'll start with saying that it is very difficult for me to view music theory as a separate "thing", because it's been a part of my educational life during ages 7-18. Therefore I can't really point a finger and say that on a given piece I used music theory for laying down the melody, but the arrangement and mixing came from learning from trial & error and watmm posts. And therefore I would not really say that the point of music theory is just for letting you write down everything in sheet music.

 

A better explanation is that sheet music used to be what we now think of as a DAW for many composers in history, and of course using a DAW is an essential part of learning how become a electronic musician these days. I would think of music theory as something that will give you the tools to understand how a lot of music is put together. I say "a lot", because when people speak of music theory they really mean the classical "western" style thing, but there's actually as many music theories as there are different musical cultures and so the theory won't cover all of that. Nor will it cover the bleeding edge of electronic experimental abstract stuff, because a lot of the times that sort of music is all about breaking new ground, which by definition has not been incorporated in any theory yet.

 

I think your aim - to get to the point where you know exactly why you're choosing the sounds you are - is basically impossible, because it requires that there would be some infallible theory to explain why you are who you are - but you are a living breathing changing person, not a thing set in stone. I don't think theory will exactly help you with that - the best a theory can do is give you some hints as to what you could do if you're stuck at some point. It's still up to you and your gut feeling to choose the right path. I would instead suggest to study music theory just to learn a new way of thinking - don't expect it to be immediately and consciously usable: instead let it settle in your subconscious and become a part of your mental workflow. I think it took me like 4 years of piano/singing/solfeggio/music history lessons before it really clicked that I could play my own music on the piano and actually enjoy it and get a kick out of it. 

 

I remember a quote from a famous composer whose name I don't remember anymore: an assistant was looking at the written sheet music and asking: "hey, if this is atonal music, then the theory says this note is out of place" and the composer replies something along the lines of "no, the note is fine, because I make atonal *music*, not *atonal* music".

 

That said, at this point I don't think I would want to go study music theory at an academy, but I guess it's because I am basically not interested in classical/modern classical music, and I really don't see anything interesting coming out of those institutions. I think music for me is a very ethereal and abstract thing, and I believe trying to apply too much theory to it would be like walking around at a rave and performing EKGs and psychology assessments - every time the DJ drops a new beat - to measure the changes.

[Auditor]

I think we're on the same page. I understand the essentials of theory (and a little more) from studying here and there over the years, and the "not liking writing down notation" statement reflects your conclusion about not being interested in modern classical stuff (most of which I can't get into at all either). I don't care about doing analysis on anything other than pieces that I like because I am not trying to imitate/regurgitate Haydn or Mozart or Feldman, and grasping the concepts of theory, (especially the Romantics and before) isn't that difficult even without the endless analysis of antiquated pieces.

 

I do like writing mostly tonal/modal stuff when I bother to actually write, so I look at learning more theory as simply giving me more tools/tricks to work with.

 

You're very right about a lot of experimental electronic music not needing any semblance of theory though, and plenty (probably most) of my pieces aren't built on anything except for intuition. I'm trying to get back into some piano writing right now, which is why I'm digging into the books atm. I misstated my intentions by saying "I want to know why I choose my sounds", it should be: "I want to know how to make the sounds I hear in my head, and learn some new tricks to surprise myself" 

[thawkins]

Yeah it seems we mostly agree.

 

I think a fun thinking exercise is also to listen to something you don't like and then taking it apart in your head to figure out what you would change to make it likeable.

 

By the way I wouldn't say that a lot of experimental electronic music doesn't need any semblance of theory. It's rather that it doesn't need classical western music theory. There's plenty of theory that it absolutely needs: subtractive/frequency modulation synthesis, psychoacoustics and alternative tunings, not to mention all the mathematics that goes into making things bleep and bloop.

[Auditor]

Yeah, all is definitely a big stretch. I would say a lot of the more sound-designy stuff tends to be less theory and more equations and such, and then stuff like BoC is on the other end of the spectrum.

[xox]

I remember a quote from a famous composer whose name I don't remember anymore: an assistant was looking at the written sheet music and asking: "hey, if this is atonal music, then the theory says this note is out of place" and the composer replies something along the lines of "no, the note is fine, because I make atonal *music*, not *atonal* music".

 

 

 

i'd guess either boulez or berg

 

i have started to learn the theory a few months ago, again, and stopt again cause life and shit again, and again!!!

 

in high school thought about studying musical composition but also physics and medicine ...went with medicine cause the logic was that i can be a musician without studying composition but i can't be an md without college which is fine but 7 million yrs has passed and i still haven't learned the theory   i need the theory, i want the theory 

[Auditor]

I hear ya! I've started and stopped so many times it's pathetic. I think one thing that's helping me right now is knowing that I don't want or need to know all of theory. For my goals, I simply want to be able to compose at my instrument better (mainly keyboard these days). So, instead of going through every exercise in the book with a pencil and staff paper, I just work out the important bits on the piano until I get it pretty well, then move on. I'll never be writing any orchestral scores or anything, so as long as I can get to where modulating between keys, jumping in and out of modes, and creating pretty chords is easy on the keyboard, I'll be happy. Got a long way to go, but it feels a lot better than starting a theory book from scratch with the headache of thinkig you have to fill notebooks full of analysis and so on.  

[Rotwang]

If LimpyLoo were still around he'd probably have something worthwhile to say in this thread, but since he isn't it may be worth looking at this one.

[xox]

well, i had my excursions into the 'classical' world in the past...

 

https://soundcloud.com/notein/sil3-excerpt

 

...but the point is, i'd like to be able to write a proper string quartet or a symphony if i'd ever be willing to do that, and i'm pretty sure i would