A Civilized Discussion on Gender Issues

[zlemflolia]

err.....?

 

 

It seems you may have missed the point there.

 

Anyway here's an interesting (be warned it's graphic) article (graphic text anyhoo) about issues of male rape in Uganda.

 

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

 

 

Oh wow I think Zeffolia has me on block.

Even though I dislike you I do not have you on block

 

I didn't feel the need to respond to your post which was purely anecdotal and therefore not a valid piece of evidence or relevant to the discussion.

[Alcofribas]

 

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

[rixxx]

some highly fallacious methods of arguments you are using. Don't mean to be an asshole but the argument you posted above has almost less value than a chair leg in an anus

 

 

I've had to deal with a lot of shit for being a girl in this forum and that chairleganus fiasco was sadly empowering- that's what watmm has reduced me to.

[zlemflolia]

I read through the Wage Gap Myth article, the Women's Sexual Aggression Against Men article and the one about Gender Diversity causing Corporate Performance to decline.

 

A) The Wage Gap article - yeah, how dare those women have children and take time off! Stupid biology making women the only ones physically capable of birthing children. But hey it's their choice, there's never pressure from the husband, family, society.

 

B) Women's Sexual Aggression study - small sample sizes and very low percentages of actual physical violence reported by women...I wonder what the same study would show for men self-reporting?

 

C) The gender Diversity one - well the first study they cite shows a significant drop in stock price - I wonder how much of that is related to the preconceived notion that women do not perform well on the board? the next three studies they look at focus on economic performance of corporations during a global economic crisis, and the last study says that with more women on the board, firms engage in more risk taking, and says nothing about the performance of the firms in question.

 

So based on those three, I'm gonna guess the others are just as shoddy.

 

And speaking personally, I believe that the effect of the violence plays a huge role. As has been noted, physical trauma as a result of partner violence is much greater when it perpetrated by males. I've stopped women from hitting me in the face or the junk, but otherwise I'm not bothered. I would never hit a woman though, cause I know the potential for causing serious injury is really high, regardless of where I hit them. To dismiss that effect out of hand is an oversight in my opinion.

A) Sarcasm not really relevant. It IS their choice.

 

B) Yes you're right the first article may be a relatively small sample size, but the second one has a sample size of over 371,600.

 

C) Fair enough quite a valid critique, but that article is only peripherally related to my main points and not central to the original argument.

 

 

 

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

 

Okay then. Just in the US.

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

 

 

I think Zeff is a troll and not worthy of taking seriously.

[zlemflolia]

some highly fallacious methods of arguments you are using. Don't mean to be an asshole but the argument you posted above has almost less value than a chair leg in an anus

Response to added edit:

 

No that argument is not fallacious at all. You're mistaken. Please point out the fallacies.

[ambermonk]

Zeff Side

[zlemflolia]

 

 

 

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

 

 

I think Zeff is a troll and not worthy of taking seriously.

 

I'm the troll? You're the one who spammed and derailed my last thread with reaction GIFs for no apparent reason

 

Fuck off troll, you're not welcome in this discussion.

 

Zeff Side

lol

[rixxx]

I'm agreeing with limpyloo, it's sad really because this is a really interesting issue. I have actually made some valid points regarding domestic violence on males (mental not physical etc) but this is clearly not in Zeffolia's agenda.

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

 

 

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

 

 

I think Zeff is a troll and not worthy of taking seriously.

 

I'm the troll? You're the one who spammed and derailed my last thread with reaction GIFs for no apparent reason

 

Fuck off troll, you're not welcome in this discussion.

 

 

 

You can't even read the shitty articles you post to make sure they support your goofy claims.

[zlemflolia]

I'm agreeing with limpyloo, it's sad really because this is a really interesting issue. I have actually made some valid points regarding domestic violence on males (mental not physical etc) but this is clearly not in Zeffolia's agenda.

What valid points have you made?

 

None. Just a bunch of posts with anecdotal life stories that you've experienced and other factually incorrect or irrelevant statements I've already addressed.

 

And even if I were a troll that's not relevant at all, please address my arguments not my person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

 

 

I think Zeff is a troll and not worthy of taking seriously.

 

I'm the troll? You're the one who spammed and derailed my last thread with reaction GIFs for no apparent reason

 

Fuck off troll, you're not welcome in this discussion.

 

 

 

You can't even read the shitty articles you post to make sure they support your goofy claims.

 

Yes I did read them.

 

And they all do support my claim. Any discrepancies are out of semantics alone in my later restatement of them i.e. "Most places" etc.

 

So far I've seen lots of anecdotal garbage and attacks on my person. Not one successful refute of any of my points.

[triachus]

Zeffolia, you must be feel saddened in a deepest way to be the victim of all these tsunamis of misandry geared towards you

 

 

I am feeling your hurt manliness. I am feeling your manhood, right now.

 

 

 

 

 

Lღve .¸¸ ツ

(¯`✻´¯)░I░N░S░P░I░R░E░ ♥°*”˜ƸӜƷ˜”*°♥
`*.¸.*✿ღ✿ღ.¸¸♥// (ˆ◡ˆ)\\♥ ... ツ

 

 

 

 

[Adieu]

Starting to become uncivilized in here...

[zlemflolia]

@Triachus

 

Irrelevant sarcasm, no trolling please this is supposed to be a civilized discussion

 

Clearly WATMM can't handle those

 

I expected more from here, honestly.

[chenGOD]

Another set of rights in the US that I forgot to mention

 

-Women are BORN with the right to vote when they turn 18

-Men are NOT.

 

-Women have the right to abdicate parental responsibilities through a number of means (like abortion)

-Men have no rights whatsoever in this area and have to go entirely with what the WOMAN wants.

 

Uh the 26th amendment says otherwise I believe with regard to voting.

Men can just up and leave. And if you think women take on abortions lightly, then I really don't know what to say to you.

[encey]

I didn't even mention feminism in my response to his post

 

I simply said that males being a victim of rape is more of a problem than women being the victims of rape, since the majority of rape victims are males

 

That's fine, as long as 'more of a problem' = 'happens more often.' But where I can't go along with you is in the broader context of your claims that there is not a wage gap and, implicitly, that women are systematically disempowered or disenfranchised in the workplace. You might not be meaning to say that 'more men raped than women' implies 'men are in a worse social position than women,' but your making both arguments together suggests you think they go together, which maybe one thing people are resisting so strongly here (since they have nothing to do with each other).

[zlemflolia]

 

Another set of rights in the US that I forgot to mention

 

-Women are BORN with the right to vote when they turn 18

-Men are NOT.

 

-Women have the right to abdicate parental responsibilities through a number of means (like abortion)

-Men have no rights whatsoever in this area and have to go entirely with what the WOMAN wants.

 

Uh the 26th amendment says otherwise I believe with regard to voting.

Men can just up and leave. And if you think women take on abortions lightly, then I really don't know what to say to you.

Men have to register with the selective services to vote, women do not. Therefore men are not born with the right to vote at age 18 like women are. They have to earn it. Women are given it. If men don't register they can also face jail and severe penalties. Equality? I think not.

 

And I never said women take abortion lightly. And no men can't just up and leave. He will have to pay child support for 18 years. Paying for a child is NOT an abdication of parental responsibilities. Men don't have that right like women do.

[rixxx]

Did you know heart disease is the leading cause of death among women — and one of the most preventable. However most of the research conducted on heart disease is based on findings for men?

 

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Gender_matters_Heart_disease_risk_in_women.htm

 

This happens a lot actually, men are way more researched than women and this is a pretty big issue. Humans, unlike many mammals have large differences between genders (not the obvious) heart rates, body fat % and many other things that in most mammals are really very slight.

 

 

Many woman are dying because there isn't the funding for woman's research.

[zlemflolia]

 

I didn't even mention feminism in my response to his post

 

I simply said that males being a victim of rape is more of a problem than women being the victims of rape, since the majority of rape victims are males

 

That's fine, as long as 'more of a problem' = 'happens more often.' But where I can't go along with you is in the broader context of your claims that there is not a wage gap and, implicitly, that women are systematically disempowered or disenfranchised in the workplace. You might not be meaning to say that 'more men raped than women' implies 'men are in a worse social position than women,' but your making both arguments together suggests you think they go together, which maybe one thing people are resisting so strongly here (since they have nothing to do with each other).

 

What are these broader implications?

 

If anything men are being disenfranchised from the work force with the high potential for sexual harassment charges being enforced upon men

 

Women entered a male dominated environment of those careers and forced men to change the way they are to suit their needs, rather than women themselves changing to fit the environment.

[LimpyLoo]

obama is a shapeshifter lizard person:

 

now please let's have a civilized debate on the matter

 

no trolling or reaction gifs

[zlemflolia]

Did you know heart disease is the leading cause of death among women — and one of the most preventable. However most of the research conducted on heart disease is based on findings for men?

 

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Gender_matters_Heart_disease_risk_in_women.htm

 

This happens a lot actually, men are way more researched than women and this is a pretty big issue. Humans, unlike many mammals have large differences between genders (not the obvious) heart rates, body fat % and many other things that in most mammals are really very slight.

 

 

Many woman are dying because there isn't the funding for woman's research.

Did you know that women have more spent on research and awareness campaigns for their health concerns despite having much higher life expediencies than men?

 

And men die at rates 10x women in the workplace.

 

Men's health is a more pressing issue than women's yet more attention is given to women's.

 

obama is a shapeshifter lizard person:

 

now please let's have a civilized debate on the matter

 

no trolling or reaction gifs

Non sequitor

[rixxx]

In your opinion? sorry I need references.

[triachus]

@Triachus

 

Irrelevant sarcasm, no trolling please this is supposed to be a civilized discussion

 

 

Where did you think I was being sarcastic? Show me evidence. Is it because English isn't my first language? And that sometimes the structures of my sentences are awkward and inconsistent ducks? This is typical English/American behavior. Even if the non-fact that I am not not trolling is irrelevant. Address my compliments not my person.

[LimpyLoo]

 

Did you know heart disease is the leading cause of death among women — and one of the most preventable. However most of the research conducted on heart disease is based on findings for men?

 

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Gender_matters_Heart_disease_risk_in_women.htm

 

This happens a lot actually, men are way more researched than women and this is a pretty big issue. Humans, unlike many mammals have large differences between genders (not the obvious) heart rates, body fat % and many other things that in most mammals are really very slight.

 

 

Many woman are dying because there isn't the funding for woman's research.

Did you know that women have more spent on research and awareness campaigns for their health concerns despite having much higher life expediencies than men?

 

And men die at rates 10x women in the workplace.

 

Men's health is a more pressing issue than women's yet more attention is given to women's.

 

obama is a shapeshifter lizard person:

 

now please let's have a civilized debate on the matter

 

no trolling or reaction gifs

Non sequitor

 

prove that it's a non sequitor

[chenGOD]

 

I read through the Wage Gap Myth article, the Women's Sexual Aggression Against Men article and the one about Gender Diversity causing Corporate Performance to decline.

 

A) The Wage Gap article - yeah, how dare those women have children and take time off! Stupid biology making women the only ones physically capable of birthing children. But hey it's their choice, there's never pressure from the husband, family, society.

 

B) Women's Sexual Aggression study - small sample sizes and very low percentages of actual physical violence reported by women...I wonder what the same study would show for men self-reporting?

 

C) The gender Diversity one - well the first study they cite shows a significant drop in stock price - I wonder how much of that is related to the preconceived notion that women do not perform well on the board? the next three studies they look at focus on economic performance of corporations during a global economic crisis, and the last study says that with more women on the board, firms engage in more risk taking, and says nothing about the performance of the firms in question.

 

So based on those three, I'm gonna guess the others are just as shoddy.

 

And speaking personally, I believe that the effect of the violence plays a huge role. As has been noted, physical trauma as a result of partner violence is much greater when it perpetrated by males. I've stopped women from hitting me in the face or the junk, but otherwise I'm not bothered. I would never hit a woman though, cause I know the potential for causing serious injury is really high, regardless of where I hit them. To dismiss that effect out of hand is an oversight in my opinion.

A) Sarcasm not really relevant. It IS their choice.

 

B) Yes you're right the first article may be a relatively small sample size, but the second one has a sample size of over 371,600.

 

C) Fair enough quite a valid critique, but that article is only peripherally related to my main points and not central to the original argument.

 

 

 

A) You need to take at least sociology 100 to understand how much of an effect socialization and normative values have on individuals. It is ridiculous to ignore those effects.

 

B) Looked at the second link you posted - the first study (which comprises 81,247 samples out of the total) examines students from 9th to 12th grade. if you look at the data, by the time they get to 12th grade, men are much more likely to be the abuser. Another article examines the differences in types of violence between sexes, but not the frequency. Another states that "women's empowerment is associated with lower victimization rates from their partners." Aggregating small sample sizes does not make for better statistics. Additionally, one has to wonder, in self-reporting, does the definition of aggression vary between males and females?

I'm not trying to say that female abuse of men isn't a problem, hell my ex-wife tried to emasculate me mentally, but actual statistics seem to indicate that domestic abuse is still largely a problem for men on women.

 

C) Good, so we can strike that from your list of supporting articles.

 

I'm just curious, and this is not meant as a troll, and if the question is too offensive, please feel free to ignore it, but do you have some personal experience where you have been assaulted by a woman? Or is this as a result of being passed over for a job that a woman ended up getting?