Braintree Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 8 hours ago, 714681746476436 said: Ok, then I’ll assume that whatever Trump does you’ll have a problem with. I provided what you asked for, and now you’re directing your reply not towards my argument. I made my point, with my citation and the next thing you say is condescending “buddy that’s how debates work” I asked you to specifically point to a policy that you agreed with concerning immigration. You instead supplied a study that showed crime rate among illegal aliens in Arizona (not America as a whole, as I asked). So no, you didn't provide what I asked for. And I'm starting to get the inkling that your belief is unsubstantiated. You even started reply saying that it takes time for data to accumulate which means you admitted that your claim has no evidence. Are you forming a belief based on nothing? Quote It’s not a logical fallacy, I was trying to ascertain if it was worth having a discussion with you. If you can’t concede to Trump having any good policies then why would I involve myself with a discussion? I could certainly point out the policies of his I don’t like, but that’s because I’m not invested in a fan club. You should familiarize yourself with logical fallacies. You haven't stated your argument yet, so I have nothing to argue with you about. If your statement was something like "Trump's [insert policy] is a good thing because it reduces crime" then I would have something to argue against. You've only provided data for something that you haven't stated as an argument yet, and from that data I would have to assume what your argument is. Debates don't require any bargaining. We're trying to use logic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Go Brains! In all fairness though, even if I disagree with most of what "long number" says, I appreciate the "lets have a different point of view and try some critical thinking" exercise. As long as it doesn't devolve into a shouting match, I'm all for it. Better than living in an echo chamber, imo. I've worked at a scientific institute for a while, and they used to call it "Poppering" over there. A verb named after Karl Popper. Anyways, that was a pretty useful concept for me. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51239795 jfc Edited January 25, 2020 by Hugh Mughnus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extralife Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hugh Mughnus said: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51239795 jfc The epitome of irony. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambermonk Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 He's spreading his wings and that mic looks like it's ready to go deep in them butthole lips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 On 1/24/2020 at 3:18 PM, 714681746476436 said: You both understand that policies take a long time to have a tangible affect. Both trade an immigration policies will take a number of years to show a benefit or decline (especially trade). There's a lot of hysteresis in a large economy. However I believe the deportation of illegal immigrants (I can't believe didn't exist before) as well as increasing standards for the admission of refugees and asylum-seekers both lessen the burden on the American people. These are policies that most 1st world countries employ, and for good reason. As for trade, the 20% tax on all imported goods seems like a very good idea to level the playing field among Americas main competitors and Refocus government spending on American infrastructure rather than globalism makes a lot of sense to me. There's hundreds of policies, you can't possibly tell me you disagree with them all? Let's be clear here. There is a stark difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant. I see US press and news failing to make this distinction frequently. No one has an issue with legal immigrants other than their number having to be controlled and the quality of people being vetted. So policies take a long time to have a tangible effect (untrue by the way), but you think they're very good for America because...belief? "20% tax on all imported goods seems like a very good idea to level the playing field among Americas main competitors and Refocus government spending on American infrastructure rather than globalism makes a lot of sense to me." What 20% tax? While Trump has imposed a lot of tariffs, there is no across the board 20% tax on imported goods. If there were, what you are saying is you would be perfectly fine with paying 19.9% more for an American manufactured equivalent of those imported goods. As it is, Trump's tariffs have had a direct negative impact on real income, and GDP. The tariffs do nothing to "level the playing field among Americas main competitors". Trump decried NAFTA as the worst trade deal ever signed in the US. The new USMCA is largely an update to that. I don't know how the second part of your sentence "refocus government spending on American infrastructure rather than globalism" relates to tariffs because they are not related. If you're talking about how much the US spends on foreign aid, it is less than 1% of total GDP. Completely negligible in terms of US infrastructure spending. For example, depending on the year, the US gives up to $20B in farm subsidies - about half of what it spends on foreign aid. If you're talking about reducing spending on the US military and that spending abroad, then I would be in agreement with you. Re: immigration - proper reporting definitely describes the difference between legal and illegal immigration, as well as separating out for refugees. US agribusiness in particular relies on undocumented immigrants. The paper you provide as a citation is next to useless, given Arizona's history of racist policing (look up Joe Arpaio). There is no debate about whether or not Trump is racist, there have been pages and pages written about his policies as landlord, business owner, and President. There are the literal words coming out of his own mouth. Brian Tregaskin's cute little trolling aside, his policies are discriminatory and serve only to divide the working class further along racist lines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 afaik there are no white supremacy policies in the us. therefore, white supremacy is a non-issue until proven otherwise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 13 minutes ago, brian trageskin said: afaik there are no white supremacy policies in the us. therefore, white supremacy is a non-issue until proven otherwise yeah. racism is over. it doesn't exist here. there's no persecution of any kind. no one holding back the progress of any individual or group. no exploitation either. we solved all those societal problems. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, ignatius said: yeah. racism is over. it doesn't exist here. there's no persecution of any kind. no one holding back the progress of any individual or group. no exploitation either. we solved all those societal problems. i'm not saying racism doesn't exist. what i'm saying is i don't believe it plays any role in us policies, and i don't believe it's that big a social issue (although i'm not american so i might be mistaken, i just doubt it is all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 30 minutes ago, brian trageskin said: i'm not saying racism doesn't exist. what i'm saying is i don't believe it plays any role in us policies, and i don't believe it's that big a social issue (although i'm not american so i might be mistaken, i just doubt it is all). oof. racism is systemic in america. the justice system from the police to the courts to the prisons. and yes the policies. the war on drugs started under nixon as a way to target black people. for decades some 800,000 people are arrested annually for simple marijuana possession. white supremacy is at the core of stephen miller immigration policies. i'm not just talking about the sourthern border but also the policies for legal immigration/deportation etc. it's who he is. it's who trump is. it's obvious by the things done/said by this administration. there's books written about this stuff and me summarizing it here is not gonna cut it. safe to say neighborhoods where black people live have historically been neglected and target by hostile policies domestically. foreign policy historically is often fraught with many motivations that aren't altruistic. only beneficial to US and US interests. often corporate profits are the defining motivator but you can bet there's a tinge and sometimes overt streak of racism in the mix. if you google around or even just search books on amazon you'll find a library's size of material on all these topics with varying perspectives. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, ignatius said: safe to say neighborhoods where black people live have historically been neglected and target by hostile policies domestically. btw i'm talking about current us policies, what happened in the past or not was not trump's doing. 12 minutes ago, ignatius said: oof. racism is systemic in america. the justice system from the police to the courts to the prisons. i need solid proof of that to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, brian trageskin said: btw i'm talking about current us policies, what happened in the past or not was not trump's doing. i need solid proof of that to believe it. google is your friend. i'm not gonna spend the day doing the work for you. Edited January 26, 2020 by ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whosebrian Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, brian trageskin said: afaik there are no white supremacy policies in the us. therefore, white supremacy is a non-issue until proven otherwise You sound disappointed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumbass Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 6 minutes ago, whosebrian said: You sound disappointed. how so? can you smell that through the text? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 @Mesh Gear Fox what happened in the past is not my focus here. i'm talking about trump admin's policies. if you claim that institutional, systemic racism exists today in the us, you have to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxien Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, brian trageskin said: i'm not saying racism doesn't exist. what i'm saying is i don't believe it plays any role in us policies, and i don't believe it's that big a social issue (although i'm not american so i might be mistaken, i just doubt it is all). it is a big social issue almost everywhere in the country. nationally, the federal government has many many many laws to try and curb racial discrimination, etc., but these are often only applicable in federally funded workplaces and such. locally, on both state and county/parish and city levels, many places are 'officially' not down with discrimination until you start to see the loopholes and start looking at the reality of the places. the issues are vast and worse in some areas vs others arguably...but they are very, very real and very much systemic and generational in most cases. think bottom up versus top down, if that makes any sense. there's plenty of literature and data on much of this, and of course there's vast quantities of personal accounts to back the numbers up. if you (the general you, but obviously the specific you is included as well) think otherwise you're not looking (like ignatius said, google) or you're willingly blind. which is fine, you're not American so whatever, not your problem. but also why talk about it then so yeah, you're mistaken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisbot Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Ah, so the nazis weren't dangerous until they were able to make laws. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 yeah there's plenty of literature on systemic racism in the us. does this literature prove that systemic racism currently exists in the us? i seriously doubt it. 8 hours ago, auxien said: you're not American so whatever, not your problem. but also why talk about it then because i'm interested in logical fallacies and the systemic racism argument really looks like one to me, until proven otherwise 8 hours ago, Brisbot said: Ah, so the nazis weren't dangerous until they were able to make laws. Got it. yeah somebody ought to mention the nazis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, brian trageskin said: yeah there's plenty of literature on systemic racism in the us. does this literature prove that systemic racism currently exists in the us? i seriously doubt it. because i'm interested in logical fallacies and the systemic racism argument really looks like one to me, until proven otherwise yeah somebody ought to mention the nazis lol. you're right. 200 years of systemic racism ended when trump was elected. or if it does exist then it's not his problem since he wasn't president when it started. though he's been a racist his whole life and his father arguably espoused white supremacy around the dinner table. i'm sure when he got sued and lost for discrimination against black people that it was just a misunderstanding and not something that was part of his actual belief system. it's fucking well known what the trump family was like. the details are out there for your consumption or you can choose to ignore them. it's true though.. when convicted of crimes people of color never get harsher sentences than white people. that all ended in 2016. "i seriously doubt it." - - - i'm gonna put that on a t-shirt. i'll call the NAACP, southern poverty law center and the ACLU and tell them they can all go home.. job's done. turn out the lights and have a drink. Edited January 27, 2020 by ignatius 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 i could care less about trump's personal views, what i'm saying is i don't think there is such a thing as systemic racism under trump. the us have a history of racial segregation and donald trump himself might have racist views, that still doesn't prove that us citizens are currently being treated differently depending on their ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, brian trageskin said: i could care less about trump's personal views, what i'm saying is i don't think there is such a thing as systemic racism under trump. the us have a history of racial segregation and donald trump himself might have racist views, that still doesn't prove that us citizens are currently being treated differently depending on their ethnicity. it's "couldn't care less". saying you "could care less" means you care some. read your post over a few times. read some news from the last few years. you might stumble upon something called black lives matter and read something about unarmed black people being shot.. there might be news about mass demonstrations, riots etc etc. all you have to do is look at the justice system.. the courts, the prisons.. the cops.. the parole system. you can look further than that if you want. HUD, banking system, food deserts, standardized testing, education system.. where the federal dollars go etc etc. good luck. i'm out. Edited January 27, 2020 by ignatius 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 i checked for translations, 'could' and 'couldn't care less' mean the same thing unless the translation websites get it wrong yeah i've heard of about black lives matter and the different sectors that are allegedly concerned with racial discrimination. i'm still not convinced that race is a determining factor when it comes to discrimination in the us. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, brian trageskin said: i checked for translations, 'could' and 'couldn't care less' mean the same thing unless the translation websites get it wrong yeah i've heard of about black lives matter and the different sectors that are allegedly concerned with racial discrimination. i'm still not convinced that race is a determining factor when it comes to discrimination in the us. probs relevant innit Edited January 27, 2020 by MIXL2 timestamped for the ol "i dont have 30 mins" complaint but whole vid probs worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDobalina Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) Racial and class discrimination are still alive and well in the US. It's not so much the in your-face-racial-slurs type (tho that can still be found easily enough) but rather it's much more systemic. Shitty public schools. Shitty health care. Basically we're a country of haves and have-nots. The haves can afford things like higher education and health care and on the whole are more likely to enjoy a higher quality of life, standard of living, etc. The have-nots cannot afford these things and thus they and their progeny remain have-nots. It also might not be common knowledge elsewhere in the world, but the costs of higher education and health care have risen exponentially over the past several decades while real wages have remained stagnant. In the land of the "American Dream" this bullshit is literally dragging down whatever middle class is left, and those in power/gov't have no interest in stemming the tide b/c that's just how oligarchies roll. Now check the demographics of the have nots, what you see might surprise you! Edited January 27, 2020 by BobDobalina 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) On 1/26/2020 at 3:59 PM, brian trageskin said: afaik there are no white supremacy policies in the us. therefore, white supremacy is a non-issue until proven otherwise stephen miller seems to be a white supremicist, as evidenced by leaked emails. recommended articles by white supremicists pushed link between immigrants and crime recommends white supremicist book Camp of the Saints he's a key architect of trump immigration policy bannon said "He’s burrowed down into the apparatus to make fundamental change" also noteworthy trump's dad was arrested at a kkk march in 1927 trump resisted applying domestic terrorist categorization to white-supremicists, against urging of officials, even after mass shootings in US said there were fine people on both sides, after car driven into crowd of counter-protesters at white supremicist rally in charleston Chose the 6 muslim countries in Africa that Trump don't have a business presence in, for his travel ban 0-tolerance policy implementation (family separation) did not include tracking whose children were whose, resulting in hundreds of lost and stranded children Edited January 28, 2020 by very honest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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