2020 US Election

[goDel]

35 minutes ago, darreichungsform said:

It's not about bringing the right and the left together anymore, it's about the left getting into power and realizing projects that have been due for too long. If Biden loses against Trump it shows that a centrist is the worse choice to achieve that.

Biden losing could be because of multiple reasons. Prematurely putting that on "see, the centrist option doesn't work" is premature. And also assumes the non-centrist option would win. Equally presumptuous. Come on. 

And what if he wins. Would that mean it's the end of progressives? Because of this centrist success? That's equally BS, imo. 

It's all nonsense.

[zlemflolia]

39 minutes ago, goDel said:

Biden losing could be because of multiple reasons. Prematurely putting that on "see, the centrist option doesn't work" is premature. And also assumes the non-centrist option would win. Equally presumptuous. Come on. 

And what if he wins. Would that mean it's the end of progressives? Because of this centrist success? That's equally BS, imo. 

It's all nonsense.

I don't think you understand how much more progressive Bernie Sanders is than any other Democratic candidate in recent memory.  It would be a huge loss for progressives, and it would take a long time to recover.  I don't think you have the full context here.  It's now or never for many people, it's literally life or death.  The left needs to take control for a while or we will fall further into corporate fascism.

[zlemflolia]

56 minutes ago, goDel said:

There seems to be one constant though. People behaving like entitled bitches in a democracy don't want to learn. They tend to keep on bitching until they get what they want. And a couple months later, theyre bitching because stuff changed, and they want the old back. Perhaps people are too stupid for politics. 

Are you even a humanist? Entitled bitches? Can you be more specific? 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Zeffolia

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, goDel said:

I don't like the history repeating itself narrative at all. Look at the last two presidents. First black president ever in US. And the ACA after years of nothing and talking about changing the healthcare system. Took 4 decades to get there. Expansion of medicare/medicaid included. If no one learns anything, it's because they're already putting the ACA in the trashcan to move towards M4all. Really? 

obama's a neolib war mongerer who betrayed the proletariat.  why are you playing identity politics? first black president doesn't matter if he doesn't actually do what is needed for the black community, and the entire country

>I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

>I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Zeffolia

[ignatius]

1 hour ago, goDel said:

I don't like the history repeating itself narrative at all. Look at the last two presidents. First black president ever in US. And the ACA after years of nothing and talking about changing the healthcare system. Took 4 decades to get there. Expansion of medicare/medicaid included. If no one learns anything, it's because they're already putting the ACA in the trashcan to move towards M4all. Really? 

And then Trump happens. Is that history repeating? I beg to differ. 

There seems to be one constant though. People behaving like entitled bitches in a democracy don't want to learn. They tend to keep on bitching until they get what they want. And a couple months later, theyre bitching because stuff changed, and they want the old back. Perhaps people are too stupid for politics. 

trump is a "black swan" event in himself. this is new at least in the modern era. but we went from carter to reagan. a peanut farmer to a movie star. think of nixon.. the pentagon papers and daniel elseberg.. mirrors chelsea manning.. snowden.. all the same shit happening. corruption is normalized.

people don't learn i guess is what i'm saying. that's history repeating itself. harry s truman came after FDR.. and truman was basically george w bush. korean war right after WWII then vietnam justified by the gulf of tonkin incident which we know was 100% bullshit.   we get afghanistan, iraq on lies.  no one seems to learn. they buy the same patriotism bag of shit or whatever is being sold. and cheer the wars on.  we'd still get a bunch of people who would think it's totally fine and normal if we staggered into armed conflict w/iran. they'd eat it up the same way people always do. it might take a little longer to sell it but they'd sell it for sure. 

and yeah.. in some ways we move forward.. a black president.. then a mega backlash and trump. what didn't we learn?

people are getting simultaneoulsy more sophisticated and more dupable every day. it's a big diverse place with many "me first then maybe you" type of people who are selfish and disconnected from the larger mass of people. there's no community. not everywhere of course and there's probably 100 books written about american culture/society/modern life/40 hour work week/wage stagnation and all those other pressures that mold daily activities on all sides. 

w/o inspiring leaders we're due for more of the same. 

people are dumb 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by ignatius

[brian trageskin]

6 hours ago, Zeffolia said:

>I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

>I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

thanks for this interesting analysis of "12 years a slave"

i too long for the day when people won't be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character

[auxien]

[Silent Member]

.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Gocab
Very low quality post

[ignatius]

biden sanders debate in a week right? gonna be interesting.  i  bet the DNC does what it can to help biden.  i think it's  a questions from the audience town hall type debate. i bet biden gets the questions beforehand or some shady shit like that. 

he's making like 5 gaffs a day so i'm guessing he'll need at least 7 naps the  day  of the debate to be on his game in any kind of way. perhaps he'll take some trump's speed that day and power through. 

 

[marf]

Doesn't matter who wins. What the turtle Mcconnell wants the turtle gets

[ignatius]

5 minutes ago, marf said:

Doesn't matter who wins. What the turtle Mcconnell wants the turtle gets

probably unless by super slim chance he gets beat by Amy McGrath. currently even in the polls. 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/2/24/1921639/-KY-Sen-Two-Polls-Confirm-A-Toss-Up-Race-Between-Amy-McGrath-D-Moscow-Mitch-R

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by ignatius

[may be rude]

bernie himself depositing paranoid, conspiratorial horse shit. 

 

 

i saw reporting that obama encouraged pete to endorse biden. poor pete, encouaged by barack to do something. he had no choice.

what a horrible establishment person obama is. what does he know about elections? why does he feel he can consult with presidential candidates?

 

sorry. i didn't want to believe bernie himself would give juice to this pathetic narative, after we already went through this in 2016. but there you have it. he just said it on tv.

 

"force" is a word. it has a definition. what bernie said is a falsehood. and it will turn his "tens of millions" of supporters against the democrats. 

 

why in the world are the democrats not crazy about bernie. sure he's not a democrat, but i don't get it.

[zlemflolia]

32 minutes ago, ignatius said:

biden sanders debate in a week right? gonna be interesting.  i  bet the DNC does what it can to help biden.  i think it's  a questions from the audience town hall type debate. i bet biden gets the questions beforehand or some shady shit like that. 

he's making like 5 gaffs a day so i'm guessing he'll need at least 7 naps the  day  of the debate to be on his game in any kind of way. perhaps he'll take some trump's speed that day and power through. 

 

Didn't you hear?  The DNC is letting it be a "sitting" debate instead of a standing one, because Joe can't handle it lmao

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-arizona-debate-123467

[auxien]

5 minutes ago, very honest said:

bernie himself depositing paranoid, conspiratorial horse shit. 
 

...

sorry. i didn't want to believe bernie himself would give juice to this pathetic narative, after we already went through this in 2016. but there you have it. he just said it on tv.

Bernie did similar in ‘16 when he started losing. but of course the DNC basically was then and maybe is now coordinating against him, at least to some small extent. 
 

...operative thing here is to remember that the DNC isn’t some shadowy organization, and their means of ‘coordinating’ is likely akin to what we heard about four years ago... Obama and/or others suggesting  to Pete and Amy ‘hey, drop out now and support Biden, that would be cool.’ which isn’t exactly a conspiracy. lol. 

[Candiru]

3 hours ago, Zeffolia said:

Didn't you hear?  The DNC is letting it be a "sitting" debate instead of a standing one, because Joe can't handle it lmao

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-arizona-debate-123467

Bernie’s the one that had a heart attack, he fell in the shower and had that bandage on his head, etc. Fucking establishment. But this “my grandpa can beat up your grandpa” thing is pretty bad lol

[zlemflolia]

Just now, Candiru said:

Bernie’s the one that had a heart attack, he fell in the shower and had that bandage on his head, etc. Fucking establishment. But this “my grandpa can beat up your grandpa” thing is pretty bad lol

That's a random occurrence not a persistent health issue where he can't even stand up for an hour.  Not that it's good to be ableist, but it's ironic coming from the guy who challenged Trump to a pushups competition.

[caze]

This attempt to paint Biden as senile is pathetic, and as someone who actually has relatives suffering from dementia it's pretty offensive and obviously bullshit. Half the clips floating around attempting to show him as senile have been edited (like that recent one of him 'endorsing Trump' , how are people falling for this bullshit?), and the rest are just evidence of pausing, forgetting or mixing up a word (not surprising given he suffers from a stammer), something which is incredibly common amongst people generally anyway and likely has zero to do with dementia (like calling his wife his sister, who here hasn't had a parent or aunt/uncle who hasn't mixed up the names of their own children for example?). Trump on the other hand displays obvious signs of cognitive decline, with obvious failures in understanding what's going on around him, to retain information, his delusional confabulation, as well as his other obvious psychological problems).

[Rubin Farr]

I think she would have been a great POTUS

 

[zlemflolia]

39 minutes ago, Rubin Farr said:

I think she would have been a great POTUS

 

Ew, so gross spending time dancing around on TV when she should be endorsing Bernie Sanders in the primary and campaigning for him to help get people healthcare.  Does she not care about the platform she supposedly ran on, which is only supported by one other candidate still in the race?

[goDel]

1 hour ago, Rubin Farr said:

I think she would have been a great POTUS

 

Yeah. It's one of those "It's not you, it's me" cases. The US just doesn't seem ready for a female president. It's not about her, I believe.

[dingformung]

1 hour ago, caze said:

This attempt to paint Biden as senile is pathetic, and as someone who actually has relatives suffering from dementia it's pretty offensive and obviously bullshit. Half the clips floating around attempting to show him as senile have been edited (like that recent one of him 'endorsing Trump' , how are people falling for this bullshit?), and the rest are just evidence of pausing, forgetting or mixing up a word (not surprising given he suffers from a stammer), something which is incredibly common amongst people generally anyway and likely has zero to do with dementia (like calling his wife his sister, who here hasn't had a parent or aunt/uncle who hasn't mixed up the names of their own children for example?). Trump on the other hand displays obvious signs of cognitive decline, with obvious failures in understanding what's going on around him, to retain information, his delusional confabulation, as well as his other obvious psychological problems).

Trying to paint Biden as senile is less unfair than constantly associating Sanders with communism and the Soviet Union and just claiming that he will definitely ruin the economy (usually coming from people who haven't got a clue). The smear against Sanders is way worse and unfair. According to European standards Sanders is a moderate social democrat who wouldn't belong into a socialist party but right into the centre of one of the many social democrat parties that are considered centre-left. 

[goDel]

I don't think it's fair to call one smearing campaign worse than the other. I mean, they showed Biden sniffing little girls hair. Come on. Any bit of smearing looks suspicious. And the people spreading it, willfully retarded.

[caze]

2 minutes ago, darreichungsform said:

According to European standards Sanders is a moderate social democrat who wouldn't belong into a socialist party but right into the centre of one of the many social democrat parties that are considered centre-left. 

This is false. Sanders is a self described Democratic Socialist, not a Social Democrat. His policies are far to the left of anything in Europe (e.g. banning private health insurance, wealth tax, price controls, public/worker ownership of private enterprise). Some of these things were tried in Europe in the past, they were all utter failures. I used to think he wasn't as bad as this, that he was just doing the usual American thing of getting the name of his political ideology wrong (e.g liberalism), but I was wrong, he is actually this bad.

[dingformung]

1 minute ago, caze said:

This is false. Sanders is a self described Democratic Socialist, not a Social Democrat. His policies are far to the left of anything in Europe (e.g. banning private health insurance, wealth tax, price controls, public/worker ownership of private enterprise). Some of these things were tried in Europe in the past, they were all utter failures. I used to think he wasn't as bad as this, that he was just doing the usual American thing of getting the name of his political ideology wrong (e.g liberalism), but I was wrong, he is actually this bad.

I disagree with his self description. See it this way, you have an axis with two different ideas of equality on each end, one is that of equal opportunities and the other one that of equal outcomes, one is liberalism and one socialism. The idea of social democracy is finding a sweet spot on this axis that makes sense. And that's what Sanders is doing. Medicare for All is a good, rather socialist idea, that in this particular American situation makes sense and would fix a lot of problems. That's exactly the pragmatic spirit of social democracy.

[caze]

You're wrong, read what I wrote again, I gave specific examples of policies which are incompatible with European social democracy. Proper socialism is 'owning the means of production', Democratic socialism is proper socialism in this sense; social democracy is not socialism in this sense, it is merely capitalism with a good social welfare system and some income redistribution (which is fine, all that's left is to argue about the details, if this was all Bernie was advocating I wouldn't have a problem with him).