toaoaoad Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 I think the "make a shitty track on purpose" game is a bit of a compromise here. You're still working towards a goal (the finished track) but without concern for the outcome (it's supposed to be bad, or at least you've released the need for it to be good) and therefore more able to just enjoy the process. I've also done "make one track within one hour each day for x days" projects a couple of times and it's really liberating and fun, and in the end I still had a few enjoyable tracks, some total garbage and some very weird/funny shit that would never happen otherwise (and maybe shouldn't, but I had fun) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alcofribas said: i agree with and relate to this for the most part but i'd also like to emphasize things in a different way, just for the sake of experiment. there is a different paradox having to do with the way capitalism enforces a paradigm of achievement but also a never ending process without rest or meaningful conclusion. we produce but it is production itself, incessant, without gratification that is at play. work has lost a sense of meaningful conclusion. an interesting bit of data here is that people over 65 are increasingly more prominent in the workforce at (to me) shocking levels. our entire system is setup to be just perpetual work without recognition or a sense of completion or pride in what one has accomplished. so, imo, yes our culture puts emphasis on production but i think it's the production itself that is emphasized, not necessarily the material artifacts of this production (although ofc those are still very much what it's all about). this is succinctly expressed by byung-chul han when he says that in contemporary relations of production "one works into the open." what does this mean for the process of music production we're discussing here? i'm not entirely sure. i think on the one hand what you are expressing is true, that we should work without concern for the outcome and find meaning in that process. but we should also be weary of simply internalizing and reproducing this process of interminable production and instead use our studio time to break out of this stream and attempt to achieve definitive, rewarding goals. this doesn't run counter to anything you're saying, i'm just trying to think out how this more free process "delivered from lust of result" can provide meaningful experiences of closure (e.g., an album) in a world in which such experiences are increasingly absent from daily life. that's a lot to think about. creativity is a weird thing. depending on how one works.. is it diligent day in day out like a job? or is it just 'strike while the iron is hot' type of work.. or some times both/neither. what's that saying.. 90% perspiration 10% inspiration. for some people working on art of any kind is a stay in the moment/ride the wave kind of endeavor. feast or famine. some work constantly because out of volume there is more opportunity for something good to happen. meaning, you have to make those 2 or 3 or 10 mediocre things before the good work emerges. all this is considering if a person has the time to let it rule their life. most people do not. a day job, family, other considerations.. are at play and making art is a side gig for whatever reason. even w/o all the other things in life getting in the way a lot of choices have to be made in order to make art. these choices affect everything.. where you live, who your friends are, how often you see those friends etc.. it's all very random in some ways.. as random and individual as personalities. w/all that being said... thinking about more than having time to make art is a luxury for many. they do it when they can. not that this detracts from your post which i think is thoughtfully laid out. as for process vs finishing something. it's very satisfying to finish something. i think there's a lot of failures on that road though. abandoning things and not finishing them because they go wrong or just fall flat. i think a lot of artists have to work on things because it's where they feel normal, at home. lot's of artists are ill at ease. need to get their teeth into something. w/o doing so it's only so long until they go off the rails or get in a funk or something. i'm rambling.. but i think there's a lot of joy in the doing of a thing and finishing it too. some people work fast.. some slow.. some people's processes are a real struggle.. other people not so much but there's often years of training (self or formal) at play in each case. there is definitely, w/social media especially, a way different way in which people are making music. there's youtuber's who are making their living but i don't know if any of them have made an album.. some have i'm sure.. but i think they mostly make videos w/how toos and tips and tricks and gear demos which is obviously way more intertwined with a different side of capitalism. i think it all gets very personal for people. that relationship w/capitalism, production, motivation etc. as for the OP.. i don't think anyone is going to out aphex aphex twin or out autechre autechre etc.. whenever i do my head in overthinking shit about making music i'll listen to older tracks i made that i liked or enjoyed making etc.. or i'll go on a youtube nostalgia trip and listen to old rave tunes and stuff or any good music i like and remember what inspired me to start fucking around w/this stuff anyways. 1 minute ago, toaoaoad said: I think the "make a shitty track on purpose" game is a bit of a compromise here. You're still working towards a goal (the finished track) but without concern for the outcome (it's supposed to be bad, or at least you've released the need for it to be good) and therefore more able to just enjoy the process. I've also done "make one track within one hour each day for x days" projects a couple of times and it's really liberating and fun, and in the end I still had a few enjoyable tracks, some total garbage and some very weird/funny shit that would never happen otherwise (and maybe shouldn't, but I had fun) i've started tracks by listening to some tracks i like and figuring out what song i'd like to come next if it was a dj mix. pick any aphex track or whatever.. whoever.. make a song that will mix well into it.. it's sometimes a good track starter idea. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toaoaoad Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) Oh that's a nice one, I'll try that. I also have no issue straight up trying to imitate something because I know I'll fail hard at it and end up sounding nothing like it anyway lol EDIT : Well not that I've ever gone into a project thinking "I'm going to recreate Didgeridoo" or anything, but rather hearing some element of a track and thinkin "I want to do a track that does that", and still in the end it doesn't sound like it at all. It's good to try copying people, doesn't really hurt anyone unless you're trying to make big bucks on it or trying to claim a lot of credit for originality or whatever. Just another way to get things flowing Edited March 11, 2021 by toaoaoad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 5 minutes ago, toaoaoad said: I think the "make a shitty track on purpose" game is a bit of a compromise here. You're still working towards a goal (the finished track) but without concern for the outcome (it's supposed to be bad, or at least you've released the need for it to be good) and therefore more able to just enjoy the process. I've also done "make one track within one hour each day for x days" projects a couple of times and it's really liberating and fun, and in the end I still had a few enjoyable tracks, some total garbage and some very weird/funny shit that would never happen otherwise (and maybe shouldn't, but I had fun) Where does good end and bad start? What are some "bad" decisions you'd intentionally make? Does that relate to music theory? If I tried to make a bad track I would probably just make harsh noise with a really nasty tonal balance limited to the maximum so it's unlistenable and harmful for the ear. Can't get any worse than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcofribas Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 @ignatius yeah I definitely think when it comes down to it it’s all about the individuals situation and what works for them at any given point. philosophical reflections aside, on some level you gotta just try things out and figure out what works best for you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toaoaoad Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dingformung said: Where does good end and bad start? What are some "bad" decisions you'd intentionally make? Does that relate to music theory? If I tried to make a bad track I would probably just make harsh noise with a really nasty tonal balance limited to the maximum so it's unlistenable and harmful for the ear. Can't get any worse than that. I figure those decisions are unique to one's personal taste. So whatever you think makes a shitty track shitty, do an exaggerated version of that. Parody something in a comedic way, "so bad it's good". Or better yet, what kinds of things you dislike most about your own tracks? When you make a track and think it's bad, what makes it bad? And then doing that stuff on purpose, maybe to comedic effect. I'm certainly not promising that you will magically come up with a great track by accident, you won't and that's not the point. It just shakes things up. You get to experience what it's like to not care anymore, while still creating something, and it's hard to explain how/why but in my experience it does create a bit of a shift. Edited March 11, 2021 by toaoaoad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Himelstein Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Another thing to consider is maybe working with other people? It’s always been my thing to have people over to my studio to jam. That’s how I’ve met some of the more important people in my life, and it sounds cheesy, but the bonds made through writing music with some of these people are different than any other relationships I’ve ever had. It’s not at all like people you work jobs with (well maybe some of them) but real artistic creations made with other people are a really wonderful thing. Being involved in writing experimental or electronic music with other people also is really esoteric, too. Even electronic musicians that have only done solo work, or more “normal” band players don’t know what it’s like. I realize this isn’t possible for everyone, but if you have the ability to try branching out “socially” with music, it could definitely inspire you. It was pretty much the only thing I did socially for years, other than family stuff. I had no interest going to bars or anything unless it was to see a show, book a show, or play a show. I also wasn’t interested in having anyone over to my house unless it was to work on music. This is almost an asshole way to live, having no real use for friends other than to create music, but I have a wife, kids, in laws etc. I don’t really have time for friends that don’t play music. These days, it’s a little different, I’m in my late 30s, covid, and honestly a lot of my friends have kinda given up on music too. My point is this- there can be an awesome social aspect to creating electronic music (all music really) and the idea of “making it” or whatever just isn’t as important as the experience you get. Also, stepping back and seeing the actual life that most really successful musicians live has never been desirable to me. Once we did a show with this band from Amsterdam. It was an ambient coil esque electronic duo and the main guy had landed a gig working on some ballet thing or something, which is why he was in the states. He mentioned that he was fortunate to be able to write music for a living. His band mate however was just basically along for the ride, which sounds awesome, really for both. The band mate that was along for the ride also mentioned that he worked with steel all day welding and shit, and loved coming home after a hard days work and jamming. So- here are two sides of an interesting coin. There was probably little money in either direction tho (with music). They needed a place to stay, and ended up sleeping at one of the guys from my bands house (pretty common situation). This has happened to me too, we have done shows out of town for little money and stayed with friends or relatives in the towns we were playing. It’s fun sometimes, but sometimes I wanna be comfortable and stay in a fucking hotel. Probably a hotel that costs more than I’m gonna make doing the show. It seems awesome tho, traveling around in a van and all that, I just don’t know how much of that lifestyle I could take. It would be more of a vacation thing. Really, only the 1% are gonna be making enough money for me to consider that shit “worth it” as a career. I don’t mean to sound like the fox and the grapes parable, if you follow where I’m going with all this, I’m not jaded in any way towards “not making it” but when I was 15 I would have told you that I would be willing to sleep on piss covered floors for the rest of my life if I could scrape by playing music. Lastly- who knows how much any of this is real. If you see a YouTube guy with millions of subs and likes and shit, he automatically seems “legit” it’s why people like us might pay for likes or whatever. You just kind of assume that they have a value that’s different than someone with 30 subs. I’m not saying that IDM musicians could be similar to the Kardashians, but actually think about the culture of celebrity and what “making it” really means, and what value it really has. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 3 hours ago, dingformung said: Yes, the software/hardware/instrument you are using allows you to explore their particular world of sound and can lead you into new territory. Maybe into territory that you couldn't imagine before & couldn't have been able to come up with yourself out of nothing. Totally agreed I'd still like to have some brain computer interface that allows to directly create music from my mind. Would be fun yeah that makes sense. overthinking stuff generally leads to headaches and takes the fun out of things these already exist. they just use a communication protocol that requires fingers. if only my fingers weren't so lazy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptowen Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 7 hours ago, Alcofribas said: what does this mean for the process of music production we're discussing here? i'm not entirely sure. i think on the one hand what you are expressing is true, that we should work without concern for the outcome and find meaning in that process. but we should also be weary of simply internalizing and reproducing this process of interminable production and instead use our studio time to break out of this stream and attempt to achieve definitive, rewarding goals. agree with everything you said in this post. regarding this part in particular...it's tough! art making, engaging with art, art itself is all very qualitative. it's impossible to reduce the most important parts to formulas or maxims (even that statement i just made feels too much like a line in the sand). Regards making music, there will always these methods you can concoct to help you engage with the process, albeit imperfect ones (risk of becoming goal-obsessed, risk of endless mindless production without a destination, etc). The ultimate justification becomes this vague felt thing which can't be full defined - "because you love music", "because you enjoy making it", "because it feels worthwhile". But even these things can't be fixed. Does "loving" something (or someone) mean that you're always engaging with it in some lighthearted, superficially cheery fashion? Does "enjoying" a process mean that its never supposed to be difficult, or exhausting, or frustrating? Does something feeling "worthwhile" mean that it's going to neccessarily be the sort of worth that everyone will be able to appreciate, that you yourself will be able to see clearly at any given moment? Well no, of course not. But that just brings us back to this point of indetermination. Raw experience refuses to properly fit into any of the nice linguistic clothes we'd like to dress it up in 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amen Warrior Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Is anyone else finding all the posts in this thread reeeally long and boring? It's like a collection of squarepusher interview answers, except with words I mostly understand 1 1 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 22 minutes ago, Amen Warrior said: Is anyone else finding all the posts in this thread reeeally long and boring? It's like a collection of squarepusher interview answers, except with words I mostly understand Yes. I press a button and the DAW goes brrrrrr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cern Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Guys! If you feel you are not good enough you can always make lush remixes! 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xox Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) production vs product? process vs goal? what process?! There is no global process in music production that matters as much as a collection of many small processes that lead to many smaller goals. Someone mentioned writing a diary and I don’t agree! Writing a diary has nothing to do with finishing the diary! Your goal is just to write a word, then a sentence, then a paragraph. And that’s it! You have accomplished many goals and you feel satisfied! Music production is fun bc along the way of making a track you hit a goal many many times! It’s always about accomplishing goals! To make a track, let’s say a techno track... you first need to make or select a sample of a kick let’s say. It’s a relatively short process and it’s not that interesting really but what makes you smile in not that tedious boring process but the realization that you managed to make it SOUND the way you wanted, and you accomplished your first tangible GOAL (that was also comprised of many smaller goals, like hitting the right dot on the screen with your mouse pointer, finding the right plug in...). Next! Snare... bass, and so on... Many satisfying moments of reaching your micro goals is what makes the tedious process livable, not the process it self, what ever that is... imo so to enjoy the music production, you need to enjoy those micro goals. Until you make that fakn kick sound awesome, work on it, work until you feel the satisfaction, then move on! Was there ever a painter satisfied with his painting that wasn’t satisfied with the sketch first? Same for writing, write a sentence that you like, just a sentence, or a word... then move on. Collection of those will make an excellent novel. It will practically write itself bc you don’t need to know from the start what is about. Just channel the nature, your subconscious, it knows what’s about (I admit, this is the hardest part). This works for music even better! Edited March 11, 2021 by xox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 2 hours ago, cern said: Guys! If you feel you are not good enough you can always make lush remixes! I'm really tired of the fucking million acoustic covers of Avril 14th and have been thinking about making a gabber version of it but haven't been arsed to do it yet. Maybe someday.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 6 minutes ago, zkom said: I'm really tired of the fucking million acoustic covers of Avril 14th and have been thinking about making a gabber version of it but haven't been arsed to do it yet. Maybe someday.. Shitmat already did it https://shitmat.bandcamp.com/track/dont-tell-richard-babylon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, MIXL2 said: Shitmat already did it https://shitmat.bandcamp.com/track/dont-tell-richard-babylon Lol nice. But it's still lacking the distorted to fuck 200BPM kick drum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, zkom said: 8 minutes ago, MIXL2 said: Shitmat already did it https://shitmat.bandcamp.com/track/dont-tell-richard-babylon Lol nice. But it's still lacking the distorted to fuck 200BPM kick drum. see @marf? you just need to put a distorted to fuck 200BPM kick drum on your track and you will have surpassed aphexs' efforts! easy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 high art 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruising for burgers Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, toaoaoad said: It's good to try copying people... Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal Albert Einstein 14 hours ago, toaoaoad said: ...you will magically come up with a great track by accident, you won't. @dingformung Edited March 11, 2021 by Tim_J 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xox Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 5 minutes ago, Tim_J said: Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal Albert Einstein @dingformung https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruising for burgers Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, xox said: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Spoiler I was just being a silly goose... Everybody knows that every quote on the internet is by Einstein... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xox Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 8 minutes ago, Tim_J said: Hide contents I was just being a silly goose... Everybody knows that every quote on the internet is by Einstein... no i no! but also, it's probably the most misunderstood quote on the net too, especially on music forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_fraknfuterien_mustardos Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 you are right, get a real job you hippie and then do it just for your own fun when you feel like you have a lot of time to burn and nothing better to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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