Malaysian airliner shot down, 295 dead

[Guest Pennywise]

People are too hasty to jump to wild theories. If there's anything we know about humans, we fuck up a lot. Humans and weapons in particular = fuckups. Some dumb cunt shot down that plane by mistake. (as in didn't realise it was a civilian plane)

[Amen Lare]

People are too hasty to jump to wild theories. If there's anything we know about humans, we fuck up a lot. Humans and weapons in particular = fuckups. Some dumb cunt shot down that plane by mistake. (as in didn't realise it was a civilian plane)

 

This shit is some complicated shit to blow shit. You can't just throw it in the sky, you need a fucking command center.

[pyramidpanes]

yeah its a horrific story for some reason its probably the most disturbing news ive heard since 9/11 although of course atrocities happen every waking moment of the day but for some reason it has really reminded me of 9/1, no idea why, unlike other news i guess because planes are involved, & planes for some reason have a different reality than say a suicide bomber walking into a cafe in iraq. for some reason that is graspable through the filtered media & this is not as it happened on a plane, sure there must be a psychological reason behind this, as when ever a plane is involved it fills the pages unlike the daily massacre of civilians in many countries..

 

anyhow its extremely disturbing & how the russians are trying to cover it up, thers is audio evidence of them saying they did it. if anything i hope it really wakes people the fuck up & reaveals the folly of war & the utter uselessness of it , & really hope the victims dont become political scapegoats where the only action is inaction & that shit just happens, there has to be consequences, stop making fucking weapons, rip

[Guest Pennywise]

 

People are too hasty to jump to wild theories. If there's anything we know about humans, we fuck up a lot. Humans and weapons in particular = fuckups. Some dumb cunt shot down that plane by mistake. (as in didn't realise it was a civilian plane)

 

This shit is some complicated shit to blow shit. You can't just throw it in the sky, you need a fucking command center.

 

Both the SA-11 and SA-17 can be interfaced with other anti-aircraft systems through a command vehicle, creating a specific air defense grid for certain missions or defensive postures. Both systems can also be used in a standalone mode and can target aircraft with their on-board radars, regardless of whether there is a command vehicle present.

 

I reckon it was just a push the button type job

[Audioblysk]

 

 

The other possibility is that israel did this through surrogates, to distract the western media from their ground offensive, which will not be very pleasant for the gazans and so probably spark further protests in even greater numbers in more places in the west. This is only a slight possibility and i prefer my first hypothesis, because israel seems not to give a fuck what anyone thinks as it's leaders live in a bubble surrounded by their own hard worn propaganda. The inappropriate stuff they regularly come out with or try to justify is breathtaking.

i spend a lot of time on soc networks cos i'm interested in the flow of information and how its processed online (basically my thesis topic) but you really take the cake of the most fucked up delusional idiot i've ever met online, i'd even put awepittance behind you. it really boggles my mind how joyrex though it's a good idea to put you in charge of moderation. i mean i can't even imagine you perform basic, every day tasks properly like putting socks, i mean they could be poisoned with psychotropic agents by mossad to sway public opinion, so why not put some nylons on bare feet and only then wear socks, right delet?

 

 

 

 

lol, damn, you went straight Billy Madison on him. I'll just pull up a seat.

 

[awepittance]

thers is audio evidence of them saying they did it.

are you talking about this?

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

 

this guy does a pretty good break down of why the tape might not be a trustworthy source

[joshuatxuk]

What would have happened is that Ukrainian troops just had anti aircraft missile systems delivered to where they are staging their citizen brigade slaughter operations in eastern ukraine and someone saw a plane, radioed a commander saying it was a russian jet, it may have even gone up as far as the Ukranian defence minster (who is a known dick and dum dum), and so within the matter of less than five minutes from spotting the jet, in all the excitement the missile firing was approved, and we have no more malaysian airliner.

 

It's been hardly mentioned in the press, but this kind of trigger happy / lack of intel situation caused the US Navy to shoot down an Iranian Airliner in 1988. 290 people were killed.

 

As with Eastern Ukraine, there wasn't a war but a very tense proxy skirmishes in that region. The U.S. never had any aggressive inquiries nor issue anything but a limited apology, essentially blaming Iran for operating airliners while we and the Gulf States patrolled the area.

[joshuatxuk]

 

I can't believe people are already buying into the "official story" this much.

 

On Reddit there are 3000 upvotes on comments calling Putin a psychopath, etc.

 

 

But I have to say... Why the fuck would Russia shoot down this plane? What interest could they possibly have in doing that?

 

I don't think they did. I think if anything it was either the rebels using Russian supplied weapons (still making Russia partially responsible) or the Ukraine (who has lots to gain as a result of this).

 

Now whether it was intentional or accidental is a whole other story. But I don't think Russia would have shot this plane down. They have the technology and wherewithal to have known it was a civilian plane and wouldn't have just haphazardly do this.

 

Unless they are legitimately crazy and want a war. Which I doubt lol.

 

 

Agreed. Also, I remember a Jane's Defense analyst going through a hypothetical NATO-Russia war and it would essentially turn into an ugly stalemate akin to WWI for the following reasons:

 

- No one would want to use nukes.

- Russia's borders are huge, so they could not effectively counter-attack and likewise NATO forces could not easily gain ground over such vast lands.

- China would at best sit out, but ultimately they could align with NATO and cause a second front which would easily been take over. As cold war rivals and still lukewarm border nations, it'd be too risky for them to assume China as a neutral party.

[chim]

 

People are too hasty to jump to wild theories. If there's anything we know about humans, we fuck up a lot. Humans and weapons in particular = fuckups. Some dumb cunt shot down that plane by mistake. (as in didn't realise it was a civilian plane)

 

This shit is some complicated shit to blow shit. You can't just throw it in the sky, you need a fucking command center.

 

 

You can operate a Buk with only the missile launching vehicle, but the radar info is limited to things like speed and altitude - there is no way to distinguish a bogey, ally or civilian craft. It's not certain civilian transponder/avionics show up on the Buk radar.

 

The current things fucked up:

 

Someone decided this was a safe flight route, the no fly zone stops at 7km altitude but it's still retarded to fly over it with advanced SAM shit on the ground

 

Someone had the expertise to operate the Buk but somehow didn't know the possible top altitude of ukrainian transport/military aircraft and that it's about half the altitude of MH17 at the time of impact

 

Someone supplied the separatists with this kind of weaponry (russia)

 

There's a lot of disinfo and speculation in the media right now, but this looks like the most likely candidate of answering the question "who did this and why" (the youtube creation time stamp talk is the most retarded shilling I've seen, erroneous timestamping happens to ALL youtube videos) :

 

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

 

Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Grek”: Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

“Greek”: Are many people there?

“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.

 

Most likely Boris and Vlad, loyal to mother russia, were a bit too drunk and trigger happy. I have a hard time seeing this as a Ukranian false flag op. The crash site is currently sealed off by separatists, just as expected

 

This is all very shocking, the plane was fucking disintegrated in the sky. The photos are extremely surreal, seeing charred spinal cords and skulls of people like dutch civilians and top researchers who were simply going to an AIDS convention. Somebody has to step in and contain these savages if Ukraine can't/won't and Russia won't step back

[BCM]

BUCT

[chim]

Just in case anybody's still uncertain what's going on here. There's footage of a Buk crossing the Ukraine-Russia border with one of its missiles missing:

 

 

same Buk and truck in Ukraine a couple days ago:

 

 

FYI: Interior of a Buk system of this kind:

 

 

They had to know what the fuck they were doing with a control panel like that

[delet...]

 

The other possibility is that israel did this through surrogates, to distract the western media from their ground offensive, which will not be very pleasant for the gazans and so probably spark further protests in even greater numbers in more places in the west. This is only a slight possibility and i prefer my first hypothesis, because israel seems not to give a fuck what anyone thinks as it's leaders live in a bubble surrounded by their own hard worn propaganda. The inappropriate stuff they regularly come out with or try to justify is breathtaking.

i spend a lot of time on soc networks cos i'm interested in the flow of information and how its processed online (basically my thesis topic) but you really take the cake of the most fucked up delusional idiot i've ever met online

 

The fact that you say this, either presents to everybody how delusional you in fact are if you can't see the reason behind anything i have said. Or yet again shows your agenda of shooting down a messenger that you can't debate against with reality so you choose the tactic of smearing that messenger. This is the tactic you've taken with me for years because you know you can't touch this because i'm always spot on. And appealingly so. It must be infuriating.

[Guest M360]

fuck war

[delet...]

Just in case anybody's still uncertain what's going on here. There's footage of a Buk crossing the Ukraine-Russia border with one of its missiles missing:

 

 

same Buk and truck in Ukraine a couple days ago:

 

 

FYI: Interior of a Buk system of this kind:

 

 

They had to know what the fuck they were doing with a control panel like that

 

More grainy unattributed photos rolling in from the Ukrainian side. I'll give you one example, you remember those 'russian special forces that fought in chechnya' photos that the western media reported on to say that russian forces were helping the self defence forces of the break away eastern ukranian provinces. The photos were not of the same people, it was all FUD. FUD designed to convince a western audience of russia's guilt. So look at your 'russian missiles in the ukraine' pictures in the same light. There has been an avalanche of these types of non-truths, it is part of the war effort, the lies, obfuscation and denials. It's a tactic that has been used even back in the first world war. Get the headlines, gee the people up. If it gets found out, the media cycle has moved on (code for most are on board with the whole thing).

[joshuatxuk]

 

Just in case anybody's still uncertain what's going on here. There's footage of a Buk crossing the Ukraine-Russia border with one of its missiles missing:

 

 

same Buk and truck in Ukraine a couple days ago:

 

 

FYI: Interior of a Buk system of this kind:

 

 

They had to know what the fuck they were doing with a control panel like that

 

More grainy unattributed photos rolling in from the Ukrainian side. I'll give you one example, you remember those 'russian special forces that fought in chechnya' photos that the western media reported on to say that russian forces were helping the self defence forces of the break away eastern ukranian provinces. The photos were not of the same people, it was all FUD. FUD designed to convince a western audience of russia's guilt. So look at your 'russian missiles in the ukraine' pictures in the same light. There has been an avalanche of these types of non-truths, it is part of the war effort, the lies, obfuscation and denials. It's a tactic that has been used even back in the first world war. Get the headlines, gee the people up. If it gets found out, the media cycle has moved on (code for most are on board with the whole thing).

 

 

Yeah I am skeptical of the Ukrainian government, but Russia is just a misleading. I don't take any government statements by anyone at face value in this.

 

As far as the soldiers in question, they are a mixed bunch or locals and volunteers. There are not technically any Russian forces there but many of the out of country volunteers are mercenaries and Russian military veterans who have fought in Chechnya, Transnistria, Dagestan, etc. The military commander of the biggest insurgent group, the Donbass People's Militia, is a former Russian soldier and FSB commander, and was in service officially until last year, and allegedly a GRU commander up until this year. Since the cold war the Russian Federation has fought against Islamic and non-Russian separatists but supported pro-Kremlin breakaway states in Georgia and now Ukraine. It's not at all out of the question that proxy forces and corrupt government leaders are involved, but it's a loaded and inaccurate claim to say Putin is ordering these forces.

 

Also, the Russian military has in the past formed mercenary "special op" battalions from irregular troops in past operations, for example the Chechen Special_Battalion_Vostok which included soldiers who fought Russia in 1994-96 but switched sides. They were key forces in the 2008 invasion of Georgia.

 

I'm already getting quite flustered over US and UK news coverage. Obama is already pushing for heavier sanctions against Russia, something the EU and pro-Euromaiden Ukrainians desire. There's been a viral story about a Russian government wikipedia edit that blames Ukraine instead of "rockets which were "obtained from the Russian Federation." Well the fact is both of those statement's are yet to be proven. It's still unknown. It's like, one unproven claim isn't less heinous than another. Every American news network I've seen has created, even in subtle or unintentional ways, a very anti-Russian tone. People not even trying to find an agenda are by default biased. Granted, I'm not at all convinced Russia's government is innocent of this incident, but it's way, way too soon to tell. The suggestion that Russia's leaders coordinated this is pretty incredible. It would be equally incredible to say Ukrainian leaders shoot this down as a false flag operation, but honestly that is just as possible.

 

I'm still thinking this is well-trained pro-breakaway mercenaries who shoot down a civilian jet by mistake. This region is an absolute mess and instead of jostling for economic and military gains the US and NATO should focus on a cease-fire and deescalation. Their rhetoric has been aiming for anything but that. Hopefully the more moderate EU leaders (ex. Merkel has been a lot more restrained for now) will be able to gain more traction.

[eugene]

 

 

The other possibility is that israel did this through surrogates, to distract the western media from their ground offensive, which will not be very pleasant for the gazans and so probably spark further protests in even greater numbers in more places in the west. This is only a slight possibility and i prefer my first hypothesis, because israel seems not to give a fuck what anyone thinks as it's leaders live in a bubble surrounded by their own hard worn propaganda. The inappropriate stuff they regularly come out with or try to justify is breathtaking.

i spend a lot of time on soc networks cos i'm interested in the flow of information and how its processed online (basically my thesis topic) but you really take the cake of the most fucked up delusional idiot i've ever met online

 

The fact that you say this, either presents to everybody how delusional you in fact are if you can't see the reason behind anything i have said. Or yet again shows your agenda of shooting down a messenger that you can't debate against with reality so you choose the tactic of smearing that messenger. This is the tactic you've taken with me for years because you know you can't touch this because i'm always spot on. And appealingly so. It must be infuriating.

 

yes, everybody but me saw divine reason in your yet another idiotic and delusional claim...do you actually believe this yourself?

each time there was some semblance of debate with you, you disappeared after an exchange of a few posts, so this makes you both a lunatic and a liar.

[delet...]

 

 

 

The other possibility is that israel did this through surrogates, to distract the western media from their ground offensive, which will not be very pleasant for the gazans and so probably spark further protests in even greater numbers in more places in the west. This is only a slight possibility and i prefer my first hypothesis, because israel seems not to give a fuck what anyone thinks as it's leaders live in a bubble surrounded by their own hard worn propaganda. The inappropriate stuff they regularly come out with or try to justify is breathtaking.

i spend a lot of time on soc networks cos i'm interested in the flow of information and how its processed online (basically my thesis topic) but you really take the cake of the most fucked up delusional idiot i've ever met online

 

The fact that you say this, either presents to everybody how delusional you in fact are if you can't see the reason behind anything i have said. Or yet again shows your agenda of shooting down a messenger that you can't debate against with reality so you choose the tactic of smearing that messenger. This is the tactic you've taken with me for years because you know you can't touch this because i'm always spot on. And appealingly so. It must be infuriating.

 

yes, everybody but me saw divine reason in your yet another idiotic and delusional claim...do you actually believe this yourself?

each time there was some semblance of debate with you, you disappeared after an exchange of a few posts, so this makes you both a lunatic and a liar.

 

 

i wasn't talking about 'debate', as 'debating' with eugene is a fool's errand. Because you are wall to wall tactics like your second sentence there. Misdirection, misleading, miss the point. Which is exactly what you want, you want a long drawn out exercise where you keep inserting the propaganda points whilst putting down the other side with insults and false information. It's a battle for minds, and this is your tactic. I have found however that it's better just to say your piece, if people see sense in it they will agree, perhaps though they don't straight away, it can take a few months to bring them around into alignment with what you would call my conformation bias (because you disagree with me) and what i would call an understanding through confirmed reality, by paying attention to things in the news and on the web that you might not have before, that i was right. It's the long game i'm playing eugene, and i'm winning.

[azatoth]

delet and Eugene are both awful.

[delet...]

 

People are too hasty to jump to wild theories. If there's anything we know about humans, we fuck up a lot. Humans and weapons in particular = fuckups. Some dumb cunt shot down that plane by mistake. (as in didn't realise it was a civilian plane)

finally, something close to the truth.

 

that's what i said. It was an error but they don't want to admit to it.

[delet...]

10 questions from anatoly antonov, russia's deputy defence minster to the ukranians.

 

 

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

 

[jlobkob]

 

 

 

 

The other possibility is that israel did this through surrogates, to distract the western media from their ground offensive, which will not be very pleasant for the gazans and so probably spark further protests in even greater numbers in more places in the west. This is only a slight possibility and i prefer my first hypothesis, because israel seems not to give a fuck what anyone thinks as it's leaders live in a bubble surrounded by their own hard worn propaganda. The inappropriate stuff they regularly come out with or try to justify is breathtaking.

i spend a lot of time on soc networks cos i'm interested in the flow of information and how its processed online (basically my thesis topic) but you really take the cake of the most fucked up delusional idiot i've ever met online

 

The fact that you say this, either presents to everybody how delusional you in fact are if you can't see the reason behind anything i have said. Or yet again shows your agenda of shooting down a messenger that you can't debate against with reality so you choose the tactic of smearing that messenger. This is the tactic you've taken with me for years because you know you can't touch this because i'm always spot on. And appealingly so. It must be infuriating.

 

yes, everybody but me saw divine reason in your yet another idiotic and delusional claim...do you actually believe this yourself?

each time there was some semblance of debate with you, you disappeared after an exchange of a few posts, so this makes you both a lunatic and a liar.

 

 

i wasn't talking about 'debate', as 'debating' with eugene is a fool's errand. Because you are wall to wall tactics like your second sentence there. Misdirection, misleading, miss the point. Which is exactly what you want, you want a long drawn out exercise where you keep inserting the propaganda points whilst putting down the other side with insults and false information. It's a battle for minds, and this is your tactic. I have found however that it's better just to say your piece, if people see sense in it they will agree, perhaps though they don't straight away, it can take a few months to bring them around into alignment with what you would call my conformation bias (because you disagree with me) and what i would call an understanding through confirmed reality, by paying attention to things in the news and on the web that you might not have before, that i was right. It's the long game i'm playing eugene, and i'm winning.

 

 

delet did not claim his theory about israel is right, he just offered it for consideration.

i for one don't think that israel would need to shoot this airplane down to distract the media, because their genocidal and arbitrary offensive going on now is widely appreciated by the western governments; at least germany (merkel) backs up israel publicly atm.

in my opinion, delet is not a delusional idiot, but you seem like a zionistic fanatic who tries to cut out everyone who criticises israel and depict them as lunatics under the pretext of your thesis.

 

regarding the incident, i think it was most possibly an accident by the separatists and now everyone wants to use the incident for propagandistic purposes.

everyone should just wait for the results of the neutral investigation instead of looking into shabby photos and questionable telephone calls making up wild theories.

 

my condolence for the victims.

[awepittance]

Obama surprisingly put the kibosh on (to a large extent) the media spiraling out of control with the 'russia probably did this, right?' mantra with his his speech this morning, also was surprisingly 'tough' on Putin. Somehow a switch was flipped with the White House official line on how to deal with Putin, either that or they saw Putin backing off and on the defensive and used the opportunity of the world community turning against him to take a more aggressive/confrontational stance. Not as aggressive obviously as Reagan when the Korean airlines plane that went down in Soviet airspace in the 80s, but definitely a change from how Obama's been treating Putin for his entire presidency. Against my normal instincts, i think this was probably the best move Obama could have made, and I commend him for going about it this way, especially giving it 24 hours first

[goDel]

Obama surprisingly put the kibosh on (to a large extent) the media spiraling out of control with the 'russia probably did this, right?' mantra with his his speech this morning, also was surprisingly 'tough' on Putin. Somehow a switch was flipped with the White House official line on how to deal with Putin, either that or they saw Putin backing off and on the defensive and used the opportunity of the world community turning against him to take a more aggressive/confrontational stance. Not as aggressive obviously as Reagan when the Korean airlines plane that went down in Soviet airspace in the 80s, but definitely a change from how Obama's been treating Putin for his entire presidency. Against my normal instincts, i think this was probably the best move Obama could have made, and I commend him for going about it this way, especially giving it 24 hours first

 

 

What also might have helped were those NSA bitches. Amazing how fast the US brought the news that the plane was shot down...etc

 

There's much irony to be found in this situation, imo. For once, it might be clear that to have some kind of certainty of what had happened, the NSA might actually have something constructive to add.

 

** ok that last sentecne doesnt make any sense - grammatically speaking. hope the semantics still hit something

[awepittance]

what makes you factor in the NSA, you suggesting the NSA intercepted that phone call from the youtube video posted earlier and handed it to the ukrainian authorities with a wink and nod?

[goDel]

Not the phonecall. Just the fact that the US administration was so certain about the pinpointing where the shot came from, that the plane was actually shot..etc. It suggested at least some kind of proof from their own intelligence. Which is a wink/nod to the NSA. I'm not specifically hinting at intercepted phonecalls youtube vids, or deleted tweets. Although that last one might be interesting as well. As I'm sure they record those as well. Especially the ones which get deleted.