How does the World view America these days?

[delet...]

i tried that bleeding heart liberal thing when i was younger, i have a more balanced view of reality now.

[goDel]

bleeding heart liberal thing? balanced view of reality? come on... where did you loose your sense of reality? what happened?

[eugene]

He didn't write that it was the all the victim's fault but only that the state senator and pastor was partially to blame for not allowing members to carry guns in to church. The NRA distanced itself from the tweet for obvious reasons that it was unnecessary point scoring. Now if only the other side of the argument could do the same and keep their anti-gun message to themselves (gawker being hypocritical moaning about this then eh), and respect the mourning of the victims families without point-scoring or using it to push agendas (obama).

 

That all said and done, it's true that if parishioners had been armed that the kid would have been screwed, less would have died. And if the kid knew up front that they were armed he may never have bothered with that church in the first place. Don't see red at this post, my logic is unassailable.

but why not continue it a little further? if guns wouldn't be so easily available to anyone who wants them then none of that would happen in any church.

[delet...]

says a guy from a country that posted a pic of himself on the gun range holding a semi-automatic assault rifle or something, so probably likes guns and so is cynically posting that point to me, heh. yay, a net history.

[Audioblysk]

 

He didn't write that it was the all the victim's fault but only that the state senator and pastor was partially to blame for not allowing members to carry guns in to church. The NRA distanced itself from the tweet for obvious reasons that it was unnecessary point scoring. Now if only the other side of the argument could do the same and keep their anti-gun message to themselves (gawker being hypocritical moaning about this then eh), and respect the mourning of the victims families without point-scoring or using it to push agendas (obama).

 

That all said and done, it's true that if parishioners had been armed that the kid would have been screwed, less would have died. And if the kid knew up front that they were armed he may never have bothered with that church in the first place. Don't see red at this post, my logic is unassailable.

but why not continue it a little further? if guns wouldn't be so easily available to anyone who wants them then none of that would happen in any church.

 

 

That's not really true. Most guns used in gun homicides are stolen or illegally purchased stolen guns. If someone wants to find a gun and lives near a major city, chances are they can find a link to the seedy-underbelly of their area and be able to purchase weapons from there. I knew a dude in high school that did 7 years for illegally selling over a dozen guns and thousands of ecstasy pills to undercover agents... and that kid was 16.

 

So while, in a perfect world, not selling firearms at any corner gun store or cabella's would solve the problem. But, we have an issue in this country with guns already being prolific, a culture that is obsessed with violence and the inability to really stop what's already in motion.

 

Maybe if this kid's parents would have payed attention to the little bastards growing contempt for the world and people of color and not bought him a gun for his birthday like a bunch of idiot sociopaths, this could've been avoided. At least it would've proved if he had gotten an illegally obtained firearm instead of being provided one legally that the issue is not just gun sales, it's the fact that our county has weapons coming out it's ass and down its throat.

 

To be clear, I am not pro-gun, I believe they should be heavily regulated and owners should be subject to mental health evaluations, yearly firearm re-registry, and specifically designed for hunting or what have you, but to have an arsenal in your home in hopes that you can kill an intruder most likely looking for money or something is just insane and something that is a major problem with the mentality of most gun owners.

[eugene]

says a guy from a country that posted a pic of himself on the gun range holding a semi-automatic assault rifle or something, so probably likes guns and so is cynically posting that point to me, heh. yay, a net history.

you have a good memory dumblete.., that was a picture of theocide hanging in some desert like location with his bros, i pretended like i'm one of them holding a shotgun.

 

lol, it's still up: http://forum.watmm.com/topic/35047-post-your-most-recent-pic/page-384?do=findComment&comment=1389061

Edited June 21, 2015 by eugene

[delet...]

 

 

He didn't write that it was the all the victim's fault but only that the state senator and pastor was partially to blame for not allowing members to carry guns in to church. The NRA distanced itself from the tweet for obvious reasons that it was unnecessary point scoring. Now if only the other side of the argument could do the same and keep their anti-gun message to themselves (gawker being hypocritical moaning about this then eh), and respect the mourning of the victims families without point-scoring or using it to push agendas (obama).

 

That all said and done, it's true that if parishioners had been armed that the kid would have been screwed, less would have died. And if the kid knew up front that they were armed he may never have bothered with that church in the first place. Don't see red at this post, my logic is unassailable.

but why not continue it a little further? if guns wouldn't be so easily available to anyone who wants them then none of that would happen in any church.

 

 

That's not really true. Most guns used in gun homicides are stolen or illegally purchased stolen guns. If someone wants to find a gun and lives near a major city, chances are they can find a link to the seedy-underbelly of their area and be able to purchase weapons from there. I knew a dude in high school that did 7 years for illegally selling over a dozen guns and thousands of ecstasy pills to undercover agents... and that kid was 16.

 

So while, in a perfect world, not selling firearms at any corner gun store or cabella's would solve the problem. But, we have an issue in this country with guns already being prolific, a culture that is obsessed with violence and the inability to really stop what's already in motion.

 

Maybe if this kid's parents would have payed attention to the little bastards growing contempt for the world and people of color and not bought him a gun for his birthday like a bunch of idiot sociopaths, this could've been avoided. At least it would've proved if he had gotten an illegally obtained firearm instead of being provided one legally that the issue is not just gun sales, it's the fact that our county has weapons coming out it's ass and down its throat.

 

To be clear, I am not pro-gun, I believe they should be heavily regulated and owners should be subject to mental health evaluations, yearly firearm re-registry, and specifically designed for hunting or what have you, but to have an arsenal in your home in hopes that you can kill an intruder most likely looking for money or something is just insane and something that is a major problem with the mentality of most gun owners.

 

 

A couple of notes on your post, no offence meant, (don't want you to limpy me, heh. stick a few limpy mines on my hull, hah.)

 

- The first bold point was from an initial misreporting.The parents have stated that they gave him birthday money with which he then used to purchase the gun, they did not buy it for him and are just as shocked at this whole situation as anyone else.

 

- The kid passed a background check to purchase the firearm.

 

It should be noted also, and it's sadly not the headline issue here (after mourning the dead of course), that all of the nutbag shootings in the US of recent years have involved psychotropic medications. Why are we not talking about banning or massively restricting their use in vast swathes of the population when their side effects can be moral detachment and the types of thoughts and actions that can lead to mass shooting rampages? Perhaps is it because the US media derives so many billions in advertising revenue from these pharmacological timebombs, so instead it's 'ban dem guns hyuck'?

[eugene]

 

 

He didn't write that it was the all the victim's fault but only that the state senator and pastor was partially to blame for not allowing members to carry guns in to church. The NRA distanced itself from the tweet for obvious reasons that it was unnecessary point scoring. Now if only the other side of the argument could do the same and keep their anti-gun message to themselves (gawker being hypocritical moaning about this then eh), and respect the mourning of the victims families without point-scoring or using it to push agendas (obama).

 

That all said and done, it's true that if parishioners had been armed that the kid would have been screwed, less would have died. And if the kid knew up front that they were armed he may never have bothered with that church in the first place. Don't see red at this post, my logic is unassailable.

but why not continue it a little further? if guns wouldn't be so easily available to anyone who wants them then none of that would happen in any church.

 

That's not really true. Most guns used in gun homicides are stolen or illegally purchased stolen guns. If someone wants to find a gun and lives near a major city, chances are they can find a link to the seedy-underbelly of their area and be able to purchase weapons from there. I knew a dude in high school that did 7 years for illegally selling over a dozen guns and thousands of ecstasy pills to undercover agents... and that kid was 16.

 

So while, in a perfect world, not selling firearms at any corner gun store or cabella's would solve the problem. But, we have an issue in this country with guns already being prolific, a culture that is obsessed with violence and the inability to really stop what's already in motion.

 

Maybe if this kid's parents would have payed attention to the little bastards growing contempt for the world and people of color and not bought him a gun for his birthday like a bunch of idiot sociopaths, this could've been avoided. At least it would've proved if he had gotten an illegally obtained firearm instead of being provided one legally that the issue is not just gun sales, it's the fact that our county has weapons coming out it's ass and down its throat.

 

To be clear, I am not pro-gun, I believe they should be heavily regulated and owners should be subject to mental health evaluations, yearly firearm re-registry, and specifically designed for hunting or what have you, but to have an arsenal in your home in hopes that you can kill an intruder most likely looking for money or something is just insane and something that is a major problem with the mentality of most gun owners.

 

the idea is to make it as hard as possible to acquire them, right now every teenager can get them.

you don't even really know the cause and effect here, maybe having a gun made him feel empowered and went on with it. maybe if he didn't he wouldn't want to bother with the "seedy underbelly" to acquire it.

 

you can come up with all kinds of counterarguments that will explain why prohibiting guns might have not have helped in this case, but statistically prohibiting them it will definitely help reduce gun crime.

[goDel]

Always good to post this again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL8JEEt2RxI

[Audioblysk]

^^^ That is really really well done ^^^

 

You both have points. I was under the assumption that his parents gave him the weapon. Although, I don't really believe that something not being sold in stores will prohibit someone from obtaining them, if that were true there would be no problems with drugs in this country... It takes a lot of guff to go up and start murdering people, it's premeditated for the most part and this specific case certainly attests to it being so.

 

I do agree that prohibiting them will help to reduce gun crime, but that the problem is already so widespread with legal and illegal firearms that it's going to take a real 180 degree turn to be at the point where simply the inability to purchase a gun legally will stop people from obtaining them or committing heinous acts with something like a pipe-bomb that you can make from stuff at home depot. It's a means of conveyance for bloodlust

 

@ Delet, I agree, psychiatric medications are a big issue in this country leading to suicide, horrible thoughts, and ultimately worse consequences than what they are supposed to ail. The background check thing is one thing, I specifically stated mental evaluations, not whether or not the person has a clean record. But that would likely fail. I suppose either way it's not going to be an easy path to stop gun sales in the USA, but you both are right that something needs to start and it will work statistically. It worked in Australia, but you all are so cool down there, soaking in billabongs, waltzing with Matilda and such while you wrestle with dingos But we Americans suck and quite a few people here have an intense fear of giving up their firearms for very odd reasons that make them sound like they are living in an action movie and they are two seconds from having to go Steven Segal on people at any time.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Audioblysk

[delet...]

^^^ That is really really well done ^^^

 

You both have points. I was under the assumption that his parents gave him the weapon. Although, I don't really believe that something not being sold in stores will prohibit someone from obtaining them, if that were true there would be no problems with drugs in this country... It takes a lot of guff to go up and start murdering people, it's premeditated for the most part and this specific case certainly attests to it being so.

 

I do agree that prohibiting them will help to reduce gun crime, but that the problem is already so widespread with legal and illegal firearms that it's going to take a real 180 degree turn to be at the point where simply the inability to purchase a gun legally will stop people from obtaining them or committing heinous acts with something like a pipe-bomb that you can make from stuff at home depot. It's a means of conveyance for bloodlust

 

@ Delet, I agree, psychiatric medications are a big issue in this country leading to suicide, horrible thoughts, and ultimately worse consequences than what they are supposed to ail. The background check thing is one thing, I specifically stated mental evaluations, not whether or not the person has a clean record. But that would likely fail. I suppose either way it's not going to be an easy path to stop gun sales in the USA, but you both are right that something needs to start and it will work statistically. It worked in Australia, but you all are so cool down there, soaking in billabongs, waltzing with Matilda and such while you wrestle with dingos But we Americans suck and quite a few people here have an intense fear of giving up their firearms for very odd reasons that make them sound like they are living in an action movie and they are two seconds from having to go Steven Segal on people at any time.

 

 

We didn't have a gun crime problem here before they banned all our gun ownership (and now it's just roo shooters and criminals that own guns), we have a different culture, and a more equitable economic system so it never occurred to us to go round shooting each other. The US on the other hand has a vast murder rate perpetrated by a minority of the population that are living economically and socially on the edge. I have no problem with law abiding citizens maintaining their natural right to own a firearm for defence of the home and property and as a bulwark against tyranny (mostly this).

[goDel]

Culture?

 

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

 

 

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature.Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

edit: Also, look at the red text. Look very good and try to understand what it means...

Edited June 21, 2015 by goDel

[delet...]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/us/strict-chicago-gun-laws-cant-stem-fatal-shots.html?_r=0

 

and before you show me the thinkprogress counterclaim to the chicago argument with the chart, since the early 90's there has been a reduction across the country in homicides.

 

I don't like threads like this due to the intractable ideologues that inhabit them though so i'm out till the next time i dip my toe in one. To convince you lot and debunk everything would take the whole of my day off and who gives a shit.

[eugene]

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

 

yeah that's a good counterargument to all the "but if there were no guns people would be just killing with other means" claims.

Edited June 21, 2015 by eugene

[goDel]

since when does a city have protected borders?

 

edit:

first the argument: US is different because culture. than research shows: no, there's a strong relation between gun ownership and violence across all western nations.

second argument: but chicago... so research shows that across nations and states there's a strong relation, but a single city is a counterargument?

Edited June 21, 2015 by goDel

[cwmbrancity]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL8JEEt2RxI

[Adieu]

http://rt.com/usa/268756-jersey-city-party-shooting/

 

2 teens, 2 adults injured in Jersey City public shooting

 

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/breaking/Ogden-STreet-Shooting-308747231.html

 

10 Hurt After Men With Shotgun Open Fire on Father's Day Block Party in West Philadelphia

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2015/06/20/shot-killed-shooting-detroits-west-side/29059949/

 

1 dead, 9 wounded in shooting at Detroit block party

 

 

These are all shootings that occurred in the last 24 hours.

[cwmbrancity]

http://www.hbo.com/documentaries/requiem-for-the-dead-american-spring-2014/synopsis.html

[Rubin Farr]

Well, my first question is waa?

 

http://youtu.be/KPNQfLLB6-4

[Rubin Farr]

1% of Americans phone polled 20 years ago claim to have saved a life with a gun. 6% claimed contact with extra terrestrials.

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-obama-guns/21076?google_editors_picks=true

[Adieu]

God Bless America

[Nebraska]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db3yxVijD_A

[delet...]

ahh partisan politics, the end of democracy.

[Silent Member]

Every time I visit this thread all my prejudices against the US are strengthened.

[caze]

this was unexpected: http://potus.wtfpod.com/podcast/episodes/episode_613_-_president_barack_obama/

 

good listen.