Soloman Tump Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I might die a virgin. Better to die a virgin than live as a whore, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 You have to get the purpose from some source that is essentially non-logical. prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 You have to get the purpose from some source that is essentially non-logical. prove it. Logic is just rules for manipulating words and symbols without meaning or purpose. It does not say which is better or worse. All meaning to these words or symbols is external to logic. Saying that "purpose of life is x" can't be made just by using logic. You have to first define what is preferable to what and then use logic to find the conditions for the most preferable state and how to arrive at it. You kind of have to make a set of assumptions or axioms first. Like "living is better than being dead", "pain is bad", etc. Most of these probably come to people from their inherent biological programming formed by evolution so that the species can survive. I mean that is the inherent meaning of life formed by life itself. There is no objective rule why life is better than death but I don't want to die because that is my biological essence. Some people probably externalize these inherent rules as religious dogma so they can use them as verbalized arguments. Soo.. if my biological programming is geared towards the survival of the species, which makes sense in evolutionary perspective, I'm probably going to worry about the future generations also. It comes naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 ha, was just making a logic joke. i may read your post in the morning though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 ha, was just making a logic joke. i may read your post in the morning though. Heh, I first assumed that but then I thought I've spent too much time on WATMM again and my sarcasm meter is over-active. But yeah, just be what you are and do what comes naturally to you and don't over-analyze everything to pieces. Go with the flow. And all that hippie crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candiru Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I might die a virgin.Better to die a virgin than live as a whore, right? I don't wanna die a surgeon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 There is some theoretical chance that if the humanity spreads out quickly enough out of the solar system and into other systems then the life originating from Earth could survive endlessly (or at least until the end of the universe), although probably in a much different form. The point is to scatter the life widely enough so no single catastrophe will destroy it all. Also, even if the universe's fate is heat death it could be escaped in some form because there are always some entropy differences left. Entropy difference is the most basic requirement for life. But that would require a complete transformation from our current biological existence to something else. And for what purpose exactly? Anyway, what I think is that the purpose of life is born from life itself. The essence of life is to preserve itself. A pretty desperate purpose if you ask me. Not worth living for all the problems it brings only to die later. The more I see people trying to get deep into philosophical explanations of purpose of life the more desperate it all seems. Nobody is able to give an easy explanation. I believe it is much more simple than that. If the mankind (and life) was not planned and was created by an accident (ignore if you are religious) then there is, naturally, no purpose at all. It just happened. If there is a purpose it would be given by something that can give a purpose but unless I see it I don't believe in it. Purpose in life in itself is just terrible, desperate and not worth continuing. The more I know about neurology the more I believe there is no purpose at all. It is all so random and unpredictable. For me, the planet is a giant waiting room where everybody tries to kill the time that has been given to them. Because the brain is bored (a chemical state), it needs stimulations (chemicals) otherwise it will punish itself for being lazy (a chemical process damaging the brain). Now, how fucked up is that? Where is the free will in this? It is an absolute nonsense, these stupid, autonomous, forceful brain functions that basically imprison its host (the concious part of the organism) in life until he dies naturally. Yeah, sometimes it seems to me as if a part of the brain was a parasite controlling the body in order to preserve itself for as long as possible. I cannot explain the fear of death and the self-preservation instinct in any other way because there is so many contradictions in humans' behaviour it's crazy. Also, very often I see people arguing that you have these instincts that you cannot suppress. Well, if we cannot suppress them then how come some people deliberately don't have kids, most don't rape on the spot and some even manage to commit a suicide? To me, this is another example of how the logical part of the brain contradicts the unconscious, autonomous part. Again, a parasite scenario. So yeah, this was a rather chaotic post. Anyway, fuck the purpose, fuck the planet and fuck the amygdala. It all clearly DOES NOT WORK. The sooner it all ends, the better. And I will be very fucking pissed if there is a reincarnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KovalainenFanBoy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 It's funny that cockroaches will probably survive this "end of the world" but can't survive my mighty slipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 You have to get the purpose from some source that is essentially non-logical. prove it. Soo.. if my biological programming is geared towards the survival of the species, which makes sense in evolutionary perspective, I'm probably going to worry about the future generations also. It comes naturally. Bullshit. I, and others, am a proof that this is a bullshit (no offense). Reproduction needs can be suppressed by logic. Just because most of the population is ignorant, stupid or selfish enough to breed endlessly does not mean it is programmed that way. I suppressed it because it logically makes no sense at all. The problem is, most people don't find the logic or are selfish enough to breed: - "so that somebody cares about me when I am old" (a selfish person) - "so that my company/empire can be passed to somebody" (a psychopath) - "so that I can enjoy how cute the babies are" (an incredibly stupid person) - "so that I can have a famous hockey player in my family" (a retarded, selfish, insecure cunt) - "so that I can compensate for my mistakes in my own life" (a poor, insecure soul) - "so that I can get some fucking purpose in this life" (a poor, bored, insecure wreck) - "because I came early" (no comment) I believe it is a relic from the evolution that is still in our brains but does not make any sense when confronted with logic (which we didn't have when we all were just animals). The humankind is a mistake that is even able to logically deny its own purpose. Two systems in a conflict. A badly programmed code. EDIT: If the instinct to breed was really so strong and automatic and "natural", it would be as strong as the instinct to breathe which is said to be proven to be impossible to overcome without force if the tested subject has even the smallest chance to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 EDIT: If the instinct to breed was really so strong and automatic and "natural", it would be as strong as the instinct to breathe which is said to be proven to be impossible to overcome without force if the tested subject has even the smallest chance to do it. And I, and others similar, am a proof that this is not the case. Breeding is just practical for the breeder. Nothing more. Again, ignore my posts if you are religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coax Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Jev yeah I agree. We are a mishmash of millions of years of evolution. A hierarchical tree of functionality that evolved separately from each other at different time periods. I would even go so far as saying we aren't one single individual, but rather each pathway and emotion are separate persons. The only thing that unites a person is the physical borders of the body. That's why there are contradictory emotions, thoughts and behavior. The initial evolution of a function wasn't even by design, they were random mutations that happened to survive in the environment. There's still a crazy beauty in all of this though. It's all really cool one some level. The whole universe, life, technology, consciousness, whatever. It's brutal and harsh though so I feel a bit guilty saying it also. Oh and the sun will start to enter red giant phase around 800 millions years from now. By 850 billion years, earth won't be able to sustain multicellular life. Dinosaurs died 65 million years ago. Complex life on earth started around 542 million years ago. If we have some huge dieoff in the next few hundred years, there might not be enough time ever for biodiversity to evolve. Some people say this is the only chance for intelligent life on earth ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 "Hey, let's all cut down forests, burn suspicious black shit that we found underground and throw all our trash into the ocean... I wonder why all these species are dying, guys." LOL Aside from that, the five mass extinctions seems kind of strange. Isn't that very similar to a concept in Mayan beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 There is some theoretical chance that if the humanity spreads out quickly enough out of the solar system and into other systems then the life originating from Earth could survive endlessly (or at least until the end of the universe), although probably in a much different form. The point is to scatter the life widely enough so no single catastrophe will destroy it all. Also, even if the universe's fate is heat death it could be escaped in some form because there are always some entropy differences left. Entropy difference is the most basic requirement for life. But that would require a complete transformation from our current biological existence to something else. And for what purpose exactly? Anyway, what I think is that the purpose of life is born from life itself. The essence of life is to preserve itself. A pretty desperate purpose if you ask me. Not worth living for all the problems it brings only to die later. The more I see people trying to get deep into philosophical explanations of purpose of life the more desperate it all seems. Nobody is able to give an easy explanation. I believe it is much more simple than that. If the mankind (and life) was not planned and was created by an accident (ignore if you are religious) then there is, naturally, no purpose at all. It just happened. If there is a purpose it would be given by something that can give a purpose but unless I see it I don't believe in it. Purpose in life in itself is just terrible, desperate and not worth continuing. The more I know about neurology the more I believe there is no purpose at all. It is all so random and unpredictable. For me, the planet is a giant waiting room where everybody tries to kill the time that has been given to them. Because the brain is bored (a chemical state), it needs stimulations (chemicals) otherwise it will punish itself for being lazy (a chemical process damaging the brain). Now, how fucked up is that? Where is the free will in this? It is an absolute nonsense, these stupid, autonomous, forceful brain functions that basically imprison its host (the concious part of the organism) in life until he dies naturally. Yeah, sometimes it seems to me as if a part of the brain was a parasite controlling the body in order to preserve itself for as long as possible. I cannot explain the fear of death and the self-preservation instinct in any other way because there is so many contradictions in humans' behaviour it's crazy. Also, very often I see people arguing that you have these instincts that you cannot suppress. Well, if we cannot suppress them then how come some people deliberately don't have kids, most don't rape on the spot and some even manage to commit a suicide? To me, this is another example of how the logical part of the brain contradicts the unconscious, autonomous part. Again, a parasite scenario. So yeah, this was a rather chaotic post. Anyway, fuck the purpose, fuck the planet and fuck the amygdala. It all clearly DOES NOT WORK. The sooner it all ends, the better. And I will be very fucking pissed if there is a reincarnation. Erm, my point was exactly that you can't logically argue for any "purpose". You have to take it as given. You either believe that there is purpose or not, but you can't make a logical argument for it. What I meant by life giving itself a purpose is just that I feel there is a purpose because feeling that there is a purpose gave my ancestors evolutionary advantage. If I go by that route it comes naturally. I can of course dissect it logically but what is the purpose of that? :) I mean, if there is a choice between believing that there is a purpose and being happy with it or believing that there is no purpose because I can't logically argue for it and then being depressed why would I pick the depressing option if it's all the same anyway? There are some other things that can't be logically argued for. Like why there is something instead of nothing? Why not just total void? The science perhaps can explain what happens WHEN we have something, but it can't explain why we have it at the first place. It's not a substitute for metaphysics, it's just a manual for how the physical reality works. BTW, I'm not religious. I'm not trying to support any religion here. I'm just pointing out some limitations of rational thinking. I have no fucking idea why there is anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 EDIT: If the instinct to breed was really so strong and automatic and "natural", it would be as strong as the instinct to breathe which is said to be proven to be impossible to overcome without force if the tested subject has even the smallest chance to do it. And I, and others similar, am a proof that this is not the case. Breeding is just practical for the breeder. Nothing more. Again, ignore my posts if you are religious. Human sex drive is pretty strong motivator. Men will almost kill themselves just to put their penis in a vagina. It has been really recent thing that you can choose if that's going to produce a baby or not, so evolution probably has not caught up with that yet. If there was no contraception available most men would fuck away anyway even if they particularly didn't want to have kids. Also you haven't yet many any women that are willing to do anything to get pregnant? That shit is crazy. They can go completely nuts over having babies: lie, deceit, extort, fucking punch holes in condoms.. I'd say the drive just to get pregnant is pretty strong in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goiter Sanchez Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Also you haven't yet many any women that are willing to do anything to get pregnant? That shit is crazy. They can go completely nuts over having babies: lie, deceit, extort, fucking punch holes in condoms.. I'd say the drive just to get pregnant is pretty strong in some cases. http://nypost.com/2011/11/26/ex-girlfriend-hid-sperm-and-used-for-in-vitro-pregnancy-suit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Men will almost kill themselves just to put their penis in a vagina. I guess I'm not a man. Edit: I've changed my profile accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 There is some theoretical chance that if the humanity spreads out quickly enough out of the solar system and into other systems then the life originating from Earth could survive endlessly (or at least until the end of the universe), although probably in a much different form. The point is to scatter the life widely enough so no single catastrophe will destroy it all. Also, even if the universe's fate is heat death it could be escaped in some form because there are always some entropy differences left. Entropy difference is the most basic requirement for life. But that would require a complete transformation from our current biological existence to something else. And for what purpose exactly? Anyway, what I think is that the purpose of life is born from life itself. The essence of life is to preserve itself. A pretty desperate purpose if you ask me. Not worth living for all the problems it brings only to die later. The more I see people trying to get deep into philosophical explanations of purpose of life the more desperate it all seems. Nobody is able to give an easy explanation. I believe it is much more simple than that. If the mankind (and life) was not planned and was created by an accident (ignore if you are religious) then there is, naturally, no purpose at all. It just happened. If there is a purpose it would be given by something that can give a purpose but unless I see it I don't believe in it. Purpose in life in itself is just terrible, desperate and not worth continuing. The more I know about neurology the more I believe there is no purpose at all. It is all so random and unpredictable. For me, the planet is a giant waiting room where everybody tries to kill the time that has been given to them. Because the brain is bored (a chemical state), it needs stimulations (chemicals) otherwise it will punish itself for being lazy (a chemical process damaging the brain). Now, how fucked up is that? Where is the free will in this? It is an absolute nonsense, these stupid, autonomous, forceful brain functions that basically imprison its host (the concious part of the organism) in life until he dies naturally. Yeah, sometimes it seems to me as if a part of the brain was a parasite controlling the body in order to preserve itself for as long as possible. I cannot explain the fear of death and the self-preservation instinct in any other way because there is so many contradictions in humans' behaviour it's crazy. Also, very often I see people arguing that you have these instincts that you cannot suppress. Well, if we cannot suppress them then how come some people deliberately don't have kids, most don't rape on the spot and some even manage to commit a suicide? To me, this is another example of how the logical part of the brain contradicts the unconscious, autonomous part. Again, a parasite scenario. So yeah, this was a rather chaotic post. Anyway, fuck the purpose, fuck the planet and fuck the amygdala. It all clearly DOES NOT WORK. The sooner it all ends, the better. And I will be very fucking pissed if there is a reincarnation. Erm, my point was exactly that you can't logically argue for any "purpose". You have to take it as given. You either believe that there is purpose or not, but you can't make a logical argument for it. What I meant by life giving itself a purpose is just that I feel there is a purpose because feeling that there is a purpose gave my ancestors evolutionary advantage. If I go by that route it comes naturally. I can of course dissect it logically but what is the purpose of that? :) I mean, if there is a choice between believing that there is a purpose and being happy with it or believing that there is no purpose because I can't logically argue for it and then being depressed why would I pick the depressing option if it's all the same anyway? There are some other things that can't be logically argued for. Like why there is something instead of nothing? Why not just total void? The science perhaps can explain what happens WHEN we have something, but it can't explain why we have it at the first place. It's not a substitute for metaphysics, it's just a manual for how the physical reality works. BTW, I'm not religious. I'm not trying to support any religion here. I'm just pointing out some limitations of rational thinking. I have no fucking idea why there is anything. Erm, my point was exactly that you can't logically argue for any "purpose". You have to take it as given. You either believe that there is purpose or not, but you can't make a logical argument for it. I understand that. That is why I have been saying all the time that you should ignore my posts if you are religious. In other words, if you are truly religious, believe in a god and feel that you have a duty to breed for a god then I can not say anything against it. On the other hand, if you are not religious and still want to have children, you are either ignorant, selfish or insane or everything at once. What I meant by life giving itself a purpose is just that I feel there is a purpose because feeling that there is a purpose gave my ancestors evolutionary advantage This does not make sense at all. Evolutionary advantage is a purpose of life or what? Hopefully, I don't understand. If I go by that route it comes naturally. I can of course dissect it logically but what is the purpose of that? :) I mean, if there is a choice between believing that there is a purpose and being happy with it or believing that there is no purpose because I can't logically argue for it and then being depressed why would I pick the depressing option if it's all the same anyway? So you are seriously asking why would you use logic and rather pick the "depressing" option? What about...maybe...so that you don't create more suffering than there is, spare the innocent children from it and finally end this stupid non-sense shit? How about that? Does it make any sense to you? As I said, if you don't believe in a god or anything else supernatural, you have to use logic. If you don't believe in a god (or something similar) and at the same time refuse to use logic for this topic (because it is depressing), you are a lazy, bored, selfish hypocrite. There are some other things that can't be logically argued for. Like why there is something instead of nothing? Why not just total void? The science perhaps can explain what happens WHEN we have something, but it can't explain why we have it at the first place. It's not a substitute for metaphysics, it's just a manual for how the physical reality works. I agree and understand this problem. Yet, it does not influence my position against breeding in any way. If there is a god, he/she should come quickly or fuck off. If he's waiting for us to figure ourselves and then judge us accordingly, then he/she is even more stupid then we are (because he/she would obviously lack a basic understanding of how we function - not really that kind of god the books describe...apart from his evil parts...). Either that or he/she is just a cruel, crazy SOB that likes to experiment with his pets (us). To be honest, I would not be surprised in the slightest if we found out that the universe is just a vivarium in someone else's home. Like ants. BTW, I'm not religious. I'm not trying to support any religion here. I'm just pointing out some limitations of rational thinking. I have no fucking idea why there is anything. You can point out to limitations of rational thinking as you please. Just leave the children out of it. They are not needed for that. Nobody is needed for that. We should all just let go and naturally die. An easy, natural and peaceful solution. Human sex drive is pretty strong motivator. Men will almost kill themselves just to put their penis in a vagina. It has been really recent thing that you can choose if that's going to produce a baby or not, so evolution probably has not caught up with that yet. If there was no contraception available most men would fuck away anyway even if they particularly didn't want to have kids. We (me and her) fuck as we please, yet we don't have kids (even without physical/medical contraception). It has to be some kind of magic or something... Also you haven't yet many any women that are willing to do anything to get pregnant? That shit is crazy. They can go completely nuts over having babies: lie, deceit, extort, fucking punch holes in condoms.. I'd say the drive just to get pregnant is pretty strong in some cases. Yeah, and what about mass-murderers, rapists, paedophiles or psychopaths? Do you know how incredibly strong and torturing their motivations are? Will you give me more examples of insane, fucked-up, out-of-control people? Because if you keep consider them in this discussion, we can have a great, never-ending discussion about a complete relativity of everything. Everybody who goes nuts because of kids should be sedated for life. Don't you fucking see this never-ending circle of stupidity and meaninglessness in it? Why would anybody sane, knowledgeable, honest and non-religious want to support this? For what? You either have a religious purpose (free from logic of all kind) or you have a practical, selfish desire that you need to control. Nothing between that. You better convert soon, mate or I will go nuts from this shit. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 EDIT: Or we don't have a free-will (scary topic, neurology is going close to it) and are all fucked anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 And I will be very fucking pissed if there is a reincarnation. That's my favorite sentence I've read on this web site so far. Good job. If there is a god, he/she should come quickly or fuck off. If he's waiting for us to figure ourselves and then judge us accordingly, then he/she is even more stupid then we are (because he/she would obviously lack a basic understanding of how we function - not really that kind of god the books describe...apart from his evil parts...). Either that or he/she is just a cruel, crazy SOB that likes to experiment with his pets (us). To be honest, I would not be surprised in the slightest if we found out that the universe is just a vivarium in someone else's home. Like ants. I prefer to look at it this way: the purpose of life is to imprison and torture itself. The universe was created by an evil and blind god as a vessel to imprison the life that was created by God. Only when the vessel has been destroyed can God reclaim Paradise. He isn't "waiting for us to figure ourselves and then judge us accordingly," he's being kept within this evil universe and is unable to stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud capture Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Earth, you can't hear my thoughts. For you are a very large planet. But I'd like to thank you for this adventure. Stay beautiful. Thank god we're not going to slowly evolve into dinosaur sized humans. Anyways, be cool Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambermonk Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 So is this all about excessive human reproduction or our inevitable demise? Because the latter we can't control anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 As I said, if you don't believe in a god or anything else supernatural, you have to use logic. Why? Logic is a human construction. There is no way to prove that reality is logical in any deeper sense. I've been trying to say this. Just to clarify, when I say logic is human construction does not mean that it does not work. Hammer is a human construction and it's useful. But logic and reasoning are limited. The human viewpoint on reality is really limited. We don't know shit. As I said, if you don't believe in a god or anything else supernatural, you have to use logic. If you don't believe in a god (or something similar) and at the same time refuse to use logic for this topic (because it is depressing), you are a lazy, bored, selfish hypocrite. Logic is a good tool. But it's nothing more than that. We should all just let go and naturally die. An easy, natural and peaceful solution. You know if humans or some sub-group of humans die off by choosing so then it just means that they were a failed branch in evolution. Something that has higher drive to survive will take their place. If all humans decide to go voluntarily go then other species may develop similar intelligence but without the chance to become so self-doubting that they kill themselves off. If all non-religious people decide to go extinct then it means that from evolutionary perspective it's better to have religious people. And that's what we are going to have. Until at least some better option comes along. Evolution don't care how right or wrong you are. This does not make sense at all. Evolutionary advantage is a purpose of life or what? Hopefully, I don't understand. I said that the feeling that I have purpose gives me evolutionary advantage over those who don't. That's why I feel there is purpose. The entire thing with "purpose" is that it always depends on context. If you take purpose out of human experience it makes absolutely no sense because there is no ultimate context that is free from all observers. You either have a religious purpose (free from logic of all kind) or you have a practical, selfish desire that you need to control. Nothing between that. You better convert soon, mate or I will go nuts from this shit. Sorry. You are seeing things very black and white. I don't see it that way. I freely admit that I'm probably wrong on lots of points. I've changed my mind a lot on lot of issues over the years. It's very very hard to convince people to convert by logical argumentation. People believe what they want and then just rationalize it. I've done this in the past myself. Or we don't have a free-will (scary topic, neurology is going close to it) and are all fucked anyway. Well, I don't think we have. What does it even mean? Free from what? Physical reality? Or does it just mean there is something non-deterministic inside our brains? Isn't that just a kind of random number generator? To me free-will is just a convenient illusion so I'm self-aware of my own thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zkom Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Anyway, I like life. I would love to see how humanity is going to develop in the future. All apocalyptic thinking just seems very bleak to me. I've read so much philosophy of science and mathematics, that I've just given up on finding logical reasons for existence. I now view logic only as a tool and mathematics as further development of that. Trying to find metaphysical validation for existence or continuation of that from them is just pointless waste of time. Same with physics. Interesting but not anyway the ultimate truth, if there even is such a thing. So, yolo, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peace 7 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Evian Christ? More like "Christ, how did this evian happen?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganus Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Yeah, I'm in camp "I like life" as well. What the fuck is the point in nihilism? Jev sounds like a majorly unhappy fellow. Life is resilient, new animals will evolve, humans will find some way to survive, although starvation and drought is going to cut back our population. We've just forced the hand of climate change, we'll be entering into a new era. 20th century is gone. So, let's do the best with what we've got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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