Max/MSP

[d-a-m-o]

24 minutes ago, Nil said:

I bet the doc and tutorial follow a logical pedagogic progression though, and that going throught each might teach you a lot.

 

Yes that's true I think it could always be useful later ! Thanks for the online course !

[d-a-m-o]

Thanks rhmilo I already got the book but I was waiting to have a basic understanding of Max/Msp to read it (so obviously this will be the next step after the tutorials) Thanks for the motivation 

[Limo]

My suggestion would be to go through the book first. It's basically a course on the fundamentals of Max/MSP that has you build sequencers as you learn them.

 

Also, let me say something nice about Max/MSP: it's a very complete environment for interfacing with devices and technologies. Need to output MIDI? Do visuals? Interface to Ableton Live? You can, it's all built in. You can even program VSTs fairly easily.

I'd be hard-pressed to think of something that can do even half of what Max/MSP can do.

I personally have no need to do *all* of what it is capable of, but if you do, it's probably your best bet.

[sweepstakes]

2 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Finally, I'll say that after completing the course, the book and a bunch of other material in the end I decided Max/MSP was not for me. As programming languages go it's terrible: inconsistent, inelegant and very obviously hacked together without any sort of overall plan (there's multiple of ways to deal with arrays, for instance, and all of them are ugly and inconvenient). My programming background means I cannot in any way stomach this garbage - and nor do I need to because pretty much everything I want to do can be done with different technology.

Thank you, this is so validating.

[modey]

On 1/23/2021 at 10:48 PM, rhmilo said:

My programming background means I cannot in any way stomach this garbage - and nor do I need to because pretty much everything I want to do can be done with different technology.

lol I can definitely understand that perspective after spending the past year writing code and then trying Max again. I'm gonna persist, mostly because it'll probably be useful for my studies this year, but yeah sometimes it feels like the things I've been making in max could have been made much easier with a few lines of code. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by modey

[mcbpete]

Couldn't you do both using the js and/or the gen~ objects ? 

[sweepstakes]

2 hours ago, mcbpete said:

Couldn't you do both using the js and/or the gen~ objects ? 

That's quite awkward too. You're then using 2 additional languages without much in the way of libraries or modules or useful abstractions for either, so you have to do much of it from scratch. And then sharing or encapsulating the code is still done with the patcher, as is wiring them up. So you don't get the reusability advantages of code, it's more like making custom Max objects.

[sweepstakes]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:48 AM, rhmilo said:

there's multiple of ways to deal with arrays, for instance, and all of them are ugly and inconvenient

I wanna requote this too, for emphasis. This is very significant in these kinds of tools. Arrays are so incredibly useful for all sorts of audio applications: sample frames, sample banks, wavetables, delay buffers, sequencer steps, sequencer patterns, chords, scales, tuning, harmonics, polyphony, unison oscs, allpass/comb networks for reverbs, and FFT tables just to name some obvious ones. If you feel like you're working against the grain there, you are in for a bad time.

[thawkins]

Hey, anyone else using the humaniser M4L devices these days? I am on Live 10 and figured that I would give them a shot, but something is really off and I get tempo fluctuations at around 100ms or something insane like that. It sounds even worse than my regular playing.

I am pretty sure there is some math error inside the plugin that accidentally multiplies things by 10 or something like that.

These are the things I am using https://maxforlive.com/library/device/2466/group-humanizer

 

[user]

I haven't used it for a while but downloaded the updated version last week with the intention to. Will report back if I have the same experience. 

If it's a heavy session maybe it could be latency introduced by the way live/max processes are handled and prioritized?

 

If you're on twitter it seems James Holden will respond to questions regarding this device btw.

Edited January 31, 2021 by user

[thawkins]

I tried with the demo project that it comes with, and that is pretty light and things still did not work properly.

It will take some time to work up the guts to ask the man directly, though.

[Nil]

To the fellows around here who followed through the Step by step book : could you tell how many hours it took you ? I'm trying to set a hoinest, realistic deadline for myself to build the sequencer(s) from scratch (and to patch the abstractions myself, from what I've gathered it'll be crucial to achieve what I want to do). FWIW, I'm a fast learner and a hard worker. Just like everybody else though, most of the time 24 hours a day isn't enough.
I've had the book collecting dust for too long now, and after skimming through it I believe I could use the knowledge to build the text-based sequencer I'd love to use (i.e using arrays of value rather than grids, and having distinct lists for pitch / gates / velocities) to "transplant" my Tidal MIDI workflow and sequencing into a M4L device. As much as I LOVE Tidal, it'd solve many workflow limitations for me.
Cheers ! 

[d-a-m-o]

Currently reading it  and I guess it will take more time than I expected to get a good understanding of things. 

[thawkins]

2 hours ago, Nil said:

I've had the book collecting dust for too long now, and after skimming through it I believe I could use the knowledge to build the text-based sequencer I'd love to use (i.e using arrays of value rather than grids, and having distinct lists for pitch / gates / velocities) to "transplant" my Tidal MIDI workflow and sequencing into a M4L device.

This sounds suspiciously like starting to design your own programming language, which is OK to a point I guess.

I would look into somehow figuring out what you want out of this relationship between M4L and TidalCycles. For me I was happy if I could mess with Tidal in the editor (Atom, I think) and record the MIDI into Live for cutting and more involved editing.

[mcbpete]

3 hours ago, Nil said:

I'd love to use (i.e using arrays of value rather than grids, and having distinct lists for pitch / gates / velocities) to "transplant" my Tidal MIDI workflow and sequencing into a M4L device. As much as I LOVE Tidal, it'd solve many workflow limitations for me.

Have you tried Gibberwocky -

https://github.com/gibber-cc/gibberwocky

[Nil]

@thawkins

Hehehe you know I love Tidal. Ideally I'd 100% integrate it to Live, but I've yet to overcome some limitations of the combo (such as having a reliable, perfectly in sync way to trigger (automation) clips). If I could reproduce my Tidal workflow (or its logic) into a "simple" M4L device I suppose would solve most issues I keep on stumbling upon. What I do with Tidal is super simple really, mostly colliding pitch and gate sequences against each other, altering them with a bunch of functions.

@mcbpete

Gibber(wocky) is amazing, yet the langage itself is much more "verbose" than Tidal, and there's a bunch of tricks I do with Tidal I'm not sure I can do with GW. v2 is in beta, I'm not sure it still relies on Max though : https://gibber.cc/alpha/playground/

 

[cern]

Pure Data is much better than Max! 

Why?

It has much bigger compability with operating systems! You can even use it on Raspberry Pi!
You can also create your own hardware controllers, synthesizers etc.. 
PD works with hardware synths like Norns, Organelle, Many eurorack modules like Rebel Technolygy, Befaco etc..

Pure Data is way easier to use with better workflow and you can get fater sounds! 

And the best: It is open source wich means it is totally FREE!

Do Pure Data guys! Even this guy enjoys it! Suck on that shitty max 
 

 

[Nil]

Max seamless integration to Live makes it much interesting to me.

[thawkins]

25 minutes ago, Nil said:

@thawkins

Hehehe you know I love Tidal. Ideally I'd 100% integrate it to Live, but I've yet to overcome some limitations of the combo (such as having a reliable, perfectly in sync way to trigger (automation) clips). If I could reproduce my Tidal workflow (or its logic) into a "simple" M4L device I suppose would solve most issues I keep on stumbling upon. What I do with Tidal is super simple really, mostly colliding pitch and gate sequences against each other, altering them with a bunch of functions.

Re: triggering automation clips.

Do you mean something like having pre-made automation clips in Live and you would sequence these clips from Tidal by the same logic as you trigger MIDI notes?

It feels like a workable solution to this is just map a some notes to trigger those clip slots in Live. After all, you should be able to sync Live and Tidal through Link which should take care of the synchronization problem. Then the oyster is your world and you can set the clip launch quantization off the grid to fully control things from Tidal.

[Nil]

Exactly, just for modulations / automations though. Believe me, I've tried !  Yet I haven't found something reliable / consistent enough. Tidal is fantastic for steppy CC automation, or cycle-long mod patterns, and super fun. For long automations, or smooth fades etc... it's a whole different story.

[thawkins]

5 minutes ago, Nil said:

Max seamless integration to Live makes it much interesting to me.

Yeah I tried this thing called Camomile to use Pure Data with Live and it was much more painful to do than use M4L. That said, I like Pure Data slightly more, just because it is raw and fun to build things from scratch with. I haven't really used it in the recent months though..

[thawkins]

3 minutes ago, Nil said:

Exactly, just for modulations / automations though. Believe me, I've tried !  Yet I haven't found something reliable / consistent enough. Tidal is fantastic for steppy CC automation, or cycle-long mod patterns, and super fun. For long automations, or smooth fades etc... it's a whole different story.

For this case I have found that it is a great starting point just to write in Tidal something that you wished that would work, and then figure out how to align the technological stars so that it actually does.

I.e. if you want a smooth long fade in, then could you combine a "steppy CC automation" that is just a looot of small steps in a long pattern. After all if it is MIDI, it's only 127 discrete values and if you only send a message if it changes, it is not really spamming the engine or anything like that.

Sorry, this stuff is suddenly very interesting for me, because it's a technical programming problem and all that.

[xox]

Pure data is so ugly that I couldn’t connect two objects before losing my sight! 
 

[thawkins]

5 minutes ago, xox said:

Pure data is so ugly that I couldn’t connect two objects before losing my sight! 
 

So is it true that when you go blind, you start making better mixes?

[Nil]

re: Gibber : I asked Charlie Roberts, its developper about v2 Max/M4L compatibility, and here's his answer "I actually worked on this a bunch over the past couple of days. I still have this dream where the WebAudio syncs with the output of max/ableton, but getting that sync working is tricky. I'm still hoping it will get there though!"

Which would be pretty awesome. Gibber 2 features Tidal inspired syntax so that could be exactly what I'm looking for. The way it displays modulations and sequence playback is cleverly thought-out too.

@thawkins Tidal can also output 14bit MIDI CC, which is vastly more precise but might overload any virtual MIDI bus (used to pipe out MIDI from Tidal / SuperCollider to Live). Now, Live (and M4L) uses built-in automation protocol, which is super smooth with an amazing resolution. Of course it's not mandatory in all situation, but it can make a world of difference for sound design (and mixing).