Bitcoin

[LimpyLoo]

The problem is that the currently massively-abused credit system (erm, bailouts anyone?) is slowly eroding trust in the major fiat currency in the western world, the USD.

 

I don't think sheatheman is arguing in favor of returning to the gold standard, btw, rather I got the impression that he thinks we just need to re-think what "value" means when we speak of having it. The housing market crash and 'liquid assets', the "value" of higher education in the US ($25000 will buy you a job dont ya know!), the bizarre I-wanna-be-a-prospective-investor-too-and-get-rich-on-something-possibly-worthless attitude of so many recent risky bitcoin investors... all of these are examples of misplaced trust in the value of something, and it usually ends badly. I think sheatheman is trying to just get across the point that there -are- valuable things in the world: being able to support your loved ones with your own physical labor and knowledge of the natural land, for instance - but that most people do not consider this valuable, despite the intrinsic value of it in the absence of all the false value systems we are currrently sifting through.

 

Wow I said that poorly. Hopefully the point's still in there thoughh.

 

. So essentially currency should be backed by something that is objectively useful like labor?

 

Yeah that would be a better system (I think).

[luke viia]

Or rather that currency isn't the only (or even primary) thing of value in our lives, I suppose

 

I dunno where a credit based system goes after the trust is gone, though. Scary to think about.

Edited November 28, 2013 by luke viia

[LimpyLoo]

Or rather that currency isn't the only thing that's valuable, I suppose.

 

right

 

but do you mean going back to a barter-kinda system where you bypass the actual currency and just trade the valuable thing itself?

 

I mean, you can't really go into a store and grab a bag of groceries and then give the guy 3 hours worth of labor right there. Or take 5 pigs with you everytime you go to the market.

 

Currency in that case would be very useful as a sort of IOU (which was its original purpose I suppose).

[luke viia]

Nah, I didn't mean to suggest we should do away with currency entirely. The idea of a trade-based economy kinda needs it eh. I don't like how much importance we place on it, and on acquiring it, but I do think it's important to have a way to effectively trade with your neighbors. I believe in fair trade, which is why you need to go to my Trans Pacific Partnership thread right now, Limpy.

 

Regarding where you were going with that "go to the store and pay with labor" idea -- what if there -was- a currency based on buying things with hours of labor? You couldn't trade the labor right there, no, but you could go into "hour debt" and owe worked hours to some central agency who could place you in positions you were qualified for; meanwhile the merchants could be credited in hours worked by people who were qualified to work in his place of business...

 

It would require a widely skilled labor force, but it's probably doable on smaller scales (like within a community).

[LimpyLoo]

Nah, I didn't mean to suggest we should do away with currency entirely. The idea of a trade-based economy kinda needs it eh. I don't like how much importance we place on it, and on acquiring it, but I do think it's important to have a way to effectively trade with your neighbors. I believe in fair trade, which is why you need to go to my Trans Pacific Partnership thread right now, Limpy.

 

Regarding where you were going with that "go to the store and pay with labor" idea -- what if there -was- a currency based on buying things with hours of labor? You couldn't trade the labor right there, no, but you could go into "hour debt" and owe worked hours to some central agency who could place you in positions you were qualified for; meanwhile the merchants could be credited in hours worked by people who were qualified to work in his place of business...

 

It would require a widely skilled labor force, but it's probably doable on smaller scales (like within a community).

 

man i justed posted in your TPP thread

 

get with the times homie

[luke viia]

[sheatheman]

 

beyond that it is literally just a hunk of pretty shit that is functionally useless

now come on man without gold you wouldn't be able to make Goldschläger - what else are post apocalyptic middle class college kids gonna get drunk on at their post apocalyptic college kid parties?

 

 

hahaha

 

 

The problem is that the currently massively-abused credit system (erm, bailouts anyone?) is slowly eroding trust in the major fiat currency in the western world, the USD.

 

I don't think sheatheman is arguing in favor of returning to the gold standard, btw, rather I got the impression that he thinks we just need to re-think what "value" means when we speak of having it. The housing market crash and 'liquid assets', the "value" of higher education in the US ($25000 will buy you a job dont ya know!), the bizarre I-wanna-be-a-prospective-investor-too-and-get-rich-on-something-possibly-worthless attitude of so many recent risky bitcoin investors... all of these are examples of misplaced trust in the value of something, and it usually ends badly. I think sheatheman is trying to just get across the point that there -are- valuable things in the world: being able to support your loved ones with your own physical labor and knowledge of the natural land, for instance - but that most people do not consider this valuable, despite the intrinsic value of it in the absence of all the false value systems we are currrently sifting through.

 

Wow I said that poorly. Hopefully the point's still in there thoughh.

 

From a very utilitarian standpoint, something with value will enable or promote a measure of the following two effects: Survival and/or Happiness.

 

If everyone contributed to society equally, there would be no need for currency. Everything would be free. But because it is impossible that everyone would work and end up doing an equal value of labor every day (for instance, if one person harvested enough wheat for one loaf of bread and another made the loaf, those two people could be entitled to split the loaf [really simplified obviously]), currency exists to assign value to labor. The currency is not what gains someone access to actual goods/services — It is your work that does that — the currency just ensures that someone who has done twice the work as someone else would be entitled to twice the benefits.

 

That means that labor is essentially traded for labor. This is because everyone is specialized today, more than ever. If one person possessed all the skills to subsist, then the benefits of there labor would not have to transfer out.

 

So, my final point is, what value is there in a computer solving an extremely complex set of equations? What value is there in the number of bytes that make up a bitcoin?

 

If I went out and hid 21 million ping pong balls in rural Nebraska and started PPB currency, would there be any more value in those than the ones you buy from Academy? Just because something takes time does not mean there is value in it. It's just like people who pay $37k for a bag of Madonna's poop. Sure, there are a complex set of obstacles you had to traverse to get it, but that doesn't give it value.

Edited November 28, 2013 by sheatheman

[o00o]

You dont get bitcoin yet. The calculations are to secure your money transfers. Bitcoin just shows that bankers are not needed anymore. What are they doing anyway besides playing with money they do not own? Adding virtual 1s and 0s? In times of internet we dont need them anymore

[LimpyLoo]

Bitcoin is awesome and it gives me an anarchist boner.

[kokoon]

...

 

So, my final point is, what value is there in a computer solving an extremely complex set of equations? What value is there in the number of bytes that make up a bitcoin?

 

If I went out and hid 21 million ping pong balls in rural Nebraska and started PPB currency, would there be any more value in those than the ones you buy from Academy? Just because something takes time does not mean there is value in it. It's just like people who pay $37k for a bag of Madonna's poop. Sure, there are a complex set of obstacles you had to traverse to get it, but that doesn't give it value.

 

 

I politely invite you to learn more about bitcoin. It's really nothing like ping pong balls and there is huge value in a computer solving an extremely complex set of equations. I'll let you decide for yourself whether you want to investigate more, but in short:

- it's not like pingpong balls, because BTC can change hands instantly across the globe (or even outside our planet) with zero danger of falsification, plus they are more practical physically.

- these solved equations are in fact used to sign transactions, which makes the system completely decentralized - that means no need for a "bank", or some other "trustworthy" authority.

[kokoon]

Oh, and about the value of bitcoin itself, the (only) value it has is that it's a very safe, reliable and efficient means of transferring value. That's surely worth something, to you too, I presume.

[BCM]

my small amount of bitcoin now worth £174! haven't sold coz only exchange I trust is mt. gox and they're apparently 6 weeks behind with processing transactions...

[LimpyLoo]

Oh man I just looked at the first page of this thread and it hurt. Granted, no-one is psychic.

[sheatheman]

 

...

 

So, my final point is, what value is there in a computer solving an extremely complex set of equations? What value is there in the number of bytes that make up a bitcoin?

 

If I went out and hid 21 million ping pong balls in rural Nebraska and started PPB currency, would there be any more value in those than the ones you buy from Academy? Just because something takes time does not mean there is value in it. It's just like people who pay $37k for a bag of Madonna's poop. Sure, there are a complex set of obstacles you had to traverse to get it, but that doesn't give it value.

 

 

I politely invite you to learn more about bitcoin. It's really nothing like ping pong balls and there is huge value in a computer solving an extremely complex set of equations. I'll let you decide for yourself whether you want to investigate more, but in short:

- it's not like pingpong balls, because BTC can change hands instantly across the globe (or even outside our planet) with zero danger of falsification, plus they are more practical physically.

- these solved equations are in fact used to sign transactions, which makes the system completely decentralized - that means no need for a "bank", or some other "trustworthy" authority.

 

 

I have read several articles and watched the documentary. I understood it within the first 5 minutes--it's not a hard thing to grasp if you grew up playing video games. The only positive thing about it is that it is secure and decentralized. I understand the cryptographical aspect. I understand everything about it.

 

What's bad is that it is literally the same thing as mining world of war craft gold, except you use it in real life. The idea that our society is at that point is mind blowing.

 

I shouldn't be talking in here because I'm arguing more against the very idea of currency and not bitcoin alone. Bitcoin has just made me realize how psychologically and spiritually schewed global society is.

[sheatheman]

You dont get bitcoin yet. The calculations are to secure your money transfers. Bitcoin just shows that bankers are not needed anymore. What are they doing anyway besides playing with money they do not own? Adding virtual 1s and 0s? In times of internet we dont need them anymore

 

I get it. I'm not referring to the cryptography aspect, I'm referring to how bitcoins are mined which is independent of them being exchanged. Bitcoin does much more than show we don't need bankers anymore. Besides, where do you think those transaction fees, however small, go? It's the same thing. In 50 years, if Bitcoin gains momentum (the horror), there will be the need for a new system, because it will absolutely become corrupt just like banking is now.

[kokoon]

The transaction fees go to discovered new block rewards, that is, to miners.

 

You say you're actually arguing against the idea of currency, okay, that's another thing then. I agree with you that it's really sad how humanity is capable of corrupting everything that can be corrupted. Bitcoin isn't perfect, but it's much less corruptable than traditional fiat currencies.

 

I think what bothers you the most is, getting rich with mining or buying and holding bitcoin. That is not what bitcoin is (should be) about. You could argue that this is the problem, that that's exactly what it's got to be about. Bitcoin should be about making value exchange more fair and free. Right now things are happening that make you forget that, but I see it as a phase in transition to a better future. But as I don't really believe in a better future, it's still interesting to behold a thing that at least seems to have the power to better it.

[granty]

totally just gave you a bitcoin for no reason gordo, enjoy your worthless currency

 

Haha!

[o00o]

 

totally just gave you a bitcoin for no reason gordo, enjoy your worthless currency

Haha!

 

oh wow

[azatoth]

my small amount of bitcoin now worth £174! haven't sold coz only exchange I trust is mt. gox and they're apparently 6 weeks behind with processing transactions...

 

So does that mean that if you cashed in 6 months ago, once you get that processed you get the value it was then and not what it is now? That doesn't sound very good.

[o00o]

yeah it depends. MtGox is notorious for queuing peoples buyouts for weeks but there are many other bitcoin exchanges that are much faster

[BCM]

which ones would you recommend that aren't going to steal my coins?

[sheatheman]

The transaction fees go to discovered new block rewards, that is, to miners.

 

You say you're actually arguing against the idea of currency, okay, that's another thing then. I agree with you that it's really sad how humanity is capable of corrupting everything that can be corrupted. Bitcoin isn't perfect, but it's much less corruptable than traditional fiat currencies.

 

I think what bothers you the most is, getting rich with mining or buying and holding bitcoin. That is not what bitcoin is (should be) about. You could argue that this is the problem, that that's exactly what it's got to be about. Bitcoin should be about making value exchange more fair and free. Right now things are happening that make you forget that, but I see it as a phase in transition to a better future. But as I don't really believe in a better future, it's still interesting to behold a thing that at least seems to have the power to better it.

 

What bothers me most is that bitcoin is a further iteration of the mentality of in-app purchases and the like. Also, at the moment it seems to favor people with a room full of dual Radeon R-9 machines, so in a way it favors those who are already at an advantage.

[Key]

 

 

totally just gave you a bitcoin for no reason gordo, enjoy your worthless currency

Haha!

 

oh wow

 

Y'all shouldve been on watmm when funktion was handin out bitcoin like confetti

[kokoon]

Ok so you have beef with mining and speculative trading. But do you really fail to see anything positive about bitcoin? Are you even interested in a discussion?

 

So far you've just proved that you're not that well informed about the subject and you seem very bitter about what you think bitcoin is.

[LimpyLoo]

 

So far you've just proved that you're not that well informed about the subject and you seem very bitter about what you think bitcoin is.

 

lol