Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[sweepstakes]

South Koreas still have family in that country and mixed feelings about the US and their own government, it's a lot more emotionally loaded to ponder war from their perspective than ours.

OK no disrespect or even disagreement but I've been wondering about this in particular - these families have been split for decades, right? How many on either side still have ties to people on the other, beyond antebellum letters and photos of relatives they never met?

[joshuatxuk]

 

South Koreas still have family in that country and mixed feelings about the US and their own government, it's a lot more emotionally loaded to ponder war from their perspective than ours.

OK no disrespect or even disagreement but I've been wondering about this in particular - these families have been split for decades, right? How many on either side still have ties to people on the other, beyond antebellum letters and photos of relatives they never met?

 

 

Good point, there's also the fact that Korean expats are usually from the ROK but then you have groups like the Chongryon which included some of the infamously patriotic members of the DPRK soccer team at the world cup.

 

Still, North and South is still arbitrary. It's interesting to compare it to Vietnam, itself arbitrarily divided based on communist versus capitalist regime control geographically, which has since made a lot of amends over the decades since 1975: while some South Vietnamese loyalist remain in the US most Vietnamese consider it one country regardless of the war.

 

I think the more prevalent view is the hope for a united Korea - this is actually the one thing that both populations espouse, only the DPRK damns the US and Western imperialism (to include Japan and others I'm sure) as the rift whereas in the ROK it's been historically anti-communist. There's anti-US sentiment in the South as well but thats nothing to do with sympathy for the DPRK and more about resentment over US meddling and control of ROK politics and their military presence.

 

it's also important to remember that Korea was not independent until after WWII and the civil war was first and foremost the first US/European showdown versus the USSR and China. Korea was brutally occupied from 1910 to 1945 (which is why Korean-Japanese relations culturally and socially are still very iffy). before that it was invaded frequently by not just Japan but western countries and Russia. so the idea of a united Korea was something spawned before the Korea war. the efforts to unite it failed and they've been separate since. the cult of personality and intensity of the regime in the North is very much an expression of extreme nationalism. that's why the ROK also has a very pro-authoritarian culture - but in the form of corporate hegemony and military power - that made democracy harder to establish for decades. just about everyone I know who has lived there or moved from there will say something along the lines of "it's a strange country" to which people assume they mean the North but when they really mean the South and the country in general.

Edited April 19, 2017 by joshuatx

[sweepstakes]

 

 

South Koreas still have family in that country and mixed feelings about the US and their own government, it's a lot more emotionally loaded to ponder war from their perspective than ours.

OK no disrespect or even disagreement but I've been wondering about this in particular - these families have been split for decades, right? How many on either side still have ties to people on the other, beyond antebellum letters and photos of relatives they never met?

 

 

Good point, there's also the fact that Korean expats are usually from the ROK but then you have groups like the Chongryon which included some of the infamously patriotic members of the DPRK soccer team at the world cup.

 

Still, North and South is still arbitrary. It's interesting to compare it to Vietnam, itself arbitrarily divided based on communist versus capitalist regime control geographically, which has since made a lot of amends over the decades since 1975: while some South Vietnamese loyalist remain in the US most Vietnamese consider it one country regardless of the war.

 

I think the more prevalent view is the hope for a united Korea - this is actually the one thing that both populations espouse, only the DPRK damns the US and Western imperialism (to include Japan and others I'm sure) as the rift whereas in the ROK it's been historically anti-communist. There's anti-US sentiment in the South as well but thats nothing to do with sympathy for the DPRK and more about resentment over US meddling and control of ROK politics and their military presence.

 

it's also important to remember that Korea was not independent until after WWII and the civil war was first and foremost the first US/European showdown versus the USSR and China. Korea was brutally occupied from 1910 to 1945 (which is why Korean-Japanese relations culturally and socially are still very iffy). before that it was invaded frequently by not just Japan but western countries and Russia. so the idea of a united Korea was something spawned before the Korea war. the efforts to unite it failed and they've been separate since. the cult of personality and intensity of the regime in the North is very much an expression of extreme nationalism. that's why the ROK also has a very pro-authoritarian culture - but in the form of corporate hegemony and military power - that made democracy harder to establish for decades. just about everyone I know who has lived there or moved from there will say something along the lines of "it's a strange country" to which people assume they mean the North but when they really mean the South and the country in general.

 

Oh wow, I'd never heard of Chongryon before. 

 

My dad lived in ROK for a year but he mostly just talked about how awesome the food was and how nice the people were. The only really weird thing he mentioned was the border. On the other hand, the Korean guys I hung out with in college all had this weird kind of internalized anger that I assumed was rooted in either strict Confucian upbringing or the ROK's 2-year conscription (and I'm not sure whether that's still a thing).

 

From my own uneducated perspective a united Korea seems ideal, but it's hard to imagine that happening as long as either side has their own sharply differing idea of what that would look like - using the same words to describe fundamentally different scenarios. The way you describe it, it almost sounds like ROK's economic success is just driving the wedge even further.

Edited April 19, 2017 by sweepstakes

[may be rude]

the georgia sixth is going strongly blue

[chenGOD]

Marf, two points: 1) NK would launch artillery pieces toward Seoul, US bases, and other key points in South Korea. THAAD is not designed to counter artillery, but missiles (short and medium range ballistic missiles primarily, there have been no tests done against long range ballistic missiles, to the best of my knowledge).

2)There is also no indication how well a THAAD system would work in actual combat, Patriot missiles had a good success rate before the first Gulf War and ended up shooting down no SCUDs during actual combat. There is also the possibility (remote, but we don't know the true nature of NK's stockpile) that the defense system, even if it functions perfectly, gets overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

 

So those two points alone are pretty big red flags showing it would be a pretty damn bad idea, never mind ground troops and whatever else NK would decide to throw into battle.

 

North Koreans (especially in Pyongyang, and by the Chinese border) by and large have a good idea of how their economy stacks up against the developed world (side note - up until the 1980s, the North Korean economy was for the most part stronger than South Korea's). Thousands of DVDs, USB sticks and other forms of media have been smuggled into the country. Particularly popular are South Korean TV dramas (like soap operas, but not quite as terrible somehow - probably because they don't drag on for thousands of episodes). There's a lot more I could get into on North Korea and the socio-economic situation, but not appropriate for this thread.

 

Sweepstakes: Family is still very important in Korea. Watch this from last year and tell me it doesn't hit you in the feels.

 

Chongryon is of less relevance today - they were a much more powerful organization until the 90s/early 00s.

 

Josh - you bring up some salient points about invasions of Korea, just a slight clarification (although entirely possible I am misreading your comment). Korea was in fact unified for a long period of time - from 936 to 1392 under the Koryo dynasty, and from 1392 until 1897 under the Chosun dynasty.

 

It's also interesting to note that before the Korean War, there were more communists in the southern part of the peninsula than there were in the north - this had a lot to do with the US supporting certain factions for political purposes after WW2.

 

Anyways, all this to say that North Korea is not a matter that Trump can bullshit his way through.

 

In somewhat related news: the Trump administration wants to renegotiate the US-Korean free trade agreement.

Wonder if he'll threaten South Korea with North Korea.

[Rubin Farr]

[sweepstakes]

Sweepstakes: Family is still very important in Korea. Watch this from last year and tell me it doesn't hit you in the feels.

[BobDobalina]

NYT editorial about Shit Gibbon livin' large, conflicts of interest, and (surprise) no ethics whatsoever.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/opinion/mr-trump-plays-by-his-own-rules-or-no-rules.html

[joshuatxuk]

Marf, two points: 1) NK would launch artillery pieces toward Seoul, US bases, and other key points in South Korea. THAAD is not designed to counter artillery, but missiles (short and medium range ballistic missiles primarily, there have been no tests done against long range ballistic missiles, to the best of my knowledge).

2)There is also no indication how well a THAAD system would work in actual combat, Patriot missiles had a good success rate before the first Gulf War and ended up shooting down no SCUDs during actual combat. There is also the possibility (remote, but we don't know the true nature of NK's stockpile) that the defense system, even if it functions perfectly, gets overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

 

 

Good points. I think the Iron Dome is the only anti-missile system that can take on smaller rockets and shells but that's only in use in Israel at the moment. 

 

The Patriot missile is a sound system but failed because of computer system rounding errors in Gulf War. One of the things about even the best designed weapons systems is it takes actual combat to work out issues and/or fix flaws. I imagine the THAAD would be similar. Like you said though, the sheer numbers involved in a potential DPRK attack would result in casualties and the ROK would more than likely loose far more lives than the US, so it would be them to bear the brunt of losses in any US lead preemptive attack.

 

Edit: more about that rounding error: http://www-users.math.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/patriot.html

 

always restart/reboot your computers!

Edited April 19, 2017 by joshuatx

[olo]

Gronk.

Edited April 19, 2017 by olo

[joshuatxuk]

 

Josh - you bring up some salient points about invasions of Korea, just a slight clarification (although entirely possible I am misreading your comment). Korea was in fact unified for a long period of time - from 936 to 1392 under the Koryo dynasty, and from 1392 until 1897 under the Chosun dynasty.

 

It's also interesting to note that before the Korean War, there were more communists in the southern part of the peninsula than there were in the north - this had a lot to do with the US supporting certain factions for political purposes after WW2.

 

 

I'm pretty spotty on Korean history, but if anything that reinforces the point I was trying to make - Korea has historically been united and homogeneous. 

That's crazy to think there were so more communists in the South but then again I suppose the same was similar in Vietnam with the huge presence of Viet Cong and their sympathizers. 

[chenGOD]

 

 

Josh - you bring up some salient points about invasions of Korea, just a slight clarification (although entirely possible I am misreading your comment). Korea was in fact unified for a long period of time - from 936 to 1392 under the Koryo dynasty, and from 1392 until 1897 under the Chosun dynasty.

 

It's also interesting to note that before the Korean War, there were more communists in the southern part of the peninsula than there were in the north - this had a lot to do with the US supporting certain factions for political purposes after WW2.

 

 

I'm pretty spotty on Korean history, but if anything that reinforces the point I was trying to make - Korea has historically been united and homogeneous. 

That's crazy to think there were so more communists in the South but then again I suppose the same was similar in Vietnam with the huge presence of Viet Cong and their sympathizers. 

 

 

I was just confused by this part of your post

 

 

 

it's also important to remember that Korea was not independent until after WWII and the civil war was first and foremost the first US/European showdown versus the USSR and China. Korea was brutally occupied from 1910 to 1945 (which is why Korean-Japanese relations culturally and socially are still very iffy). before that it was invaded frequently by not just Japan but western countries and Russia. so the idea of a united Korea was something spawned before the Korea war. the efforts to unite it failed and they've been separate since

Korea was independent before WW2 (technically up until 1910, but in actuality after the fall of the Chosun dynasty in 1897 the Peninsula was ruled by the Japanese through a proxy Emperor), but I'm guessing you were referring to the colonial period? And it was only really invaded meaningfully by the Chinese and the Japanese - all attempts by European powers were met pretty brutally by Koreans (sometimes with a Chinese assist).

Like I said though, I'm probably just doing a shit job of reading your post - shouldn't be doing more than Dank memes when I'm this tired.

 

Anyways, Trump ain't the only one doing NoKo ridiculousness - The Pencifier is getting in on the action too.

 

https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/854781454366232579

[Lada Laika]

tbh a white devil looking constipated at me would kinda freak me out a little

[psn]

Pence was gonna stare NK into submission?

[Sally Vingoe]

whoever wins the staring contest gets to send the first nuke

[doublename]

Outlasted 12 American presidents, but the hard stare of some shit for brains Hoosier oughtta set those commies straight.

[joshuatxuk]

Outlasted 12 American presidents, but the hard stare of some shit for brains Hoosier oughtta set those commies straight.

 

He is a true Granfalloon.

[chenGOD]

Dat resolve tho

[Nebraska]

okay okay. anyone think the recent attack on the champs-elysees will result in marine le pen winning the presidency? i know her main thing is immigration (pretty much similar to trump's) and the gunman was said to be a belgian national of islamic faith (isis has, per usual, taken credit for the attack).

 

i was hoping mélenchon was going to edge past her but it seems like isis really wants le pen to win. why? do think they it will cause civil unrest in the country or is there another nefarious reason?

[kloffy]

why? do think they it will cause civil unrest in the country or is there another nefarious reason?

Maybe because it would pretty much be the end of the European Union? It plays into the hands of anyone that wants to send Europe back to the middle ages...

[keanu reeves]

melenchon is as anti eu as le pen

[may be rude]

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by very honest

[ambermonk]

Dammit. I don't want that prick ruining the friendly childhood aura of Keebler Elf for me.

[psn]

Haha, spot on!

[usagi]

anyone think the recent attack on the champs-elysees will result in marine le pen winning the presidency?

first worry I had after hearing of this incident.