Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[Earth]

 @chenGOD -- why not just ban them though? The shit they're posting is so completely heinous...

[zlemflolia]

23 minutes ago, Earth said:

 @chenGOD -- why not just ban them though? The shit they're posting is so completely heinous...

what is heinous about anything I've posted?  yes, indeed, this entire situation is heinous and inhumane.  it's difficult to even post about it without the topic involving heinous crimes on all sides and disgusting violent individuals.  you want happy nice posting about the war?

Edited March 21, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[zlemflolia]

10 hours ago, custom knob said:

For someone who supposedly hates Putin you only ever seem to post articles which repeat Russian state media narratives 

i dont know why its so hard to imagine that known neo-nazis would do bad stuff during a war.  any time anyone calls them out it's russian propaganda, the russians staged photo-ops to make the nazis look bad, etc.  give me a break.

[BobDobalina]

20 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

heinous crimes on all sides

 

[zlemflolia]

youtube has blocked embedding of this video so you have to click the link

https://youtu.be/saSAP0UUnyU

[chenGOD]

20 minutes ago, Earth said:

 @chenGOD -- why not just ban them though? The shit they're posting is so completely heinous...

As I've said - we try not to be to censorious here - there are some exceptions (rules - read - etc..) but while I agree that some of the material he posts (especially in this thread) is very egregious, it is not hate speech or breaking rules, so it wouldn't be just to censor it. Mostly the material he is posting here gets disproved very quickly.

[dcom]

19 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Mostly the material he is posting here gets disproved very quickly.

You have to nip it in the bud. The point being

Spoiler

The irony of an anecdote about nazis to make my point doesn't escape me.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by dcom

[chenGOD]

2 minutes ago, dcom said:

You have to nip it in the bud. The point being

Yes well, he's not posting in support of the Nazis, he's mostly just posting obviously disprovable russian propaganda. He's been at his internet schtick for years (see above analysis of his names), and there are always going to be one or two cranks on the boards.

I don't think his end goal is to be a terrible awful person, and if things start to spiral out of control, we'll take care of it - but I think the mod team here (that's moderators - not a group of young dandys riding around on vespas) does ok with things? (obviously I'm biased in my opinion on that issue...)

[ARPA]

 

[dcom]

44 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Yes well, he's not posting in support of the Nazis, he's mostly just posting obviously disprovable russian propaganda.

The point of the anecdote is not about nazis, it's only incidentally about them - it's about the environment not allowing people to be uncouth unchecked. Don't just read the lips / be more sublime than this / put everything in context.

Edited March 21, 2022 by dcom

[zlemflolia]

everything bad about ukraine government, military, neo-nazis integrated into its military, far right coup, is russian propaganda all of a sudden. now they are outright banning any vaguely left-wing political parties and making all TV channels become centralized under the government.  how very egalitarian, democratic of the banderite sympathizers to do this for the ukrainian people

Edited March 21, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[chenGOD]

30 minutes ago, dcom said:

The actual point of the anecdote is not about nazis, it's only incidentally about them - it's about the environment not allowing people to be uncouth unchecked. Don't just read the lips / be more sublime than this / put everything in context.

I'm aware of the point, but I don't believe that he's capturing a lot of followers with his approach.

I think it's literally impossible for the mod team to be more sublime than we already are. Unless you mean we should pass directly from the solid to the vapor state and condense back to solid form more frequently, in which case, please send the DMT to: moderators' clubhouse, watmm, usa.

[brian trageskin]

[dcom]

9 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I'm aware of the point, but I don't believe that he's capturing a lot of followers with his approach.

So it's just stiff upper lip, eh?

[zazen]

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

If we could refrain from personal speculation on the poster and concentrate on their ideas and arguments (or lack thereof, as the case may be) I think it would be better for the community writ large.

I agree with chenGOD

And I don't think Hermolia should be censored.

Some of what Hermolia has posted has been fake/disprovable but then its useful to go through that exercise. And we get to see what propaganda the other side has been seeing.

Some of what Hermolia has posted is accurate, and then people's objection has been 'why focus on that when you could focus on this other thing' - the implication being that he is posting in bad faith - but he has given good responses to that imho. He hates Putin, supports Ukrainian independence, likes communists, hates nazis. Only one of those things is an unusual position but we should be able to handle that.

Hermolia will continue to post in this thread about nazis and I think thats fair enough. They are there and we _think_ we have accounted for them (they are a minority, they dont have political power etc) but we need to be kept on our toes with that.

Much of the world supports Ukraine and so it should .... but we shouldn't get too black and white rah rah rah goodies baddies hero worship about all this. It can get so normative. We need other voices in this thread even if it makes us uncomfortable.

Edited March 21, 2022 by zazen

[ignatius]

 

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

I agree with chenGOD

And I don't think Hermolia should be censored.

Some of what Hermolia has posted has been fake/disprovable but then its useful to go through that exercise. And we get to see what propaganda the other side has been seeing.

Some of what Hermolia has posted is accurate, and then people's objection has been 'why focus on that when you could focus on this other thing' - the implication being that he is posting in bad faith - but he has given good responses to that imho. He hates Putin, supports Ukrainian independence, likes communists, hates nazis. Only one of those things is an unusual position but we should be able to handle that.

Hermolia will continue to post in this thread about nazis and I think thats fair enough. They are there and we _think_ we have accounted for them (they are a minority, they dont have political power etc) but we need to be kept on our toes with that.

Much of the world supports Ukraine and so it should .... but we shouldn't get too black and white rah rah rah goodies baddies hero worship about all this. It can get so normative. We need other voices in this thread even if it makes us uncomfortable.

[zlemflolia]

nsfw

 

[zlemflolia]

this is what happens when we promote an environment where only pro-ukraine anti-russian information is allowed to be discussed, independent journalists fear for their lives and shut down:
https://t.me/asbmil/868

>In light of recent developments in the information-sharing community/OSINT & news— the team has decided to end our coverage of the Ukraine-Russia war. It’s too risky for some members of our team who reside in countries where authorities don’t tolerate people providing alternative coverage to the mainstream narrative and they refuse to take that risk. We hope you guys find good coverage elsewhere. We will continue to cover the Middle East as normal.

[Enthusiast]

35 minutes ago, zazen said:

I agree with chenGOD

And I don't think Hermolia should be censored.

Some of what Hermolia has posted has been fake/disprovable but then its useful to go through that exercise. And we get to see what propaganda the other side has been seeing.

Some of what Hermolia has posted is accurate, and then people's objection has been 'why focus on that when you could focus on this other thing' - the implication being that he is posting in bad faith - but he has given good responses to that imho. He hates Putin, supports Ukrainian independence, likes communists, hates nazis. Only one of those things is an unusual position but we should be able to handle that.

Hermolia will continue to post in this thread about nazis and I think thats fair enough. They are there and we _think_ we have accounted for them (they are a minority, they dont have political power etc) but we need to be kept on our toes with that.

Much of the world supports Ukraine and so it should .... but we shouldn't get too black and white rah rah rah goodies baddies hero worship about all this. It can get so normative. We need other voices in this thread even if it makes us uncomfortable.

I don't agree that there is any value in indulging fake news bots or the people who  repost their memes and conspiracies. It's not the same as healthy debate. In this situation, where civilians are being massacred by an invading power - anything but the truth is an attempt to muddy the waters to the benefit of the aggressor. 

[zlemflolia]

2 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

I don't agree that there is any value in indulging fake news bots or the people who  repost their memes and conspiracies. It's not the same as healthy debate. In this situation, where civilians are being massacred by an invading power - anything but the truth is an attempt to muddy the waters to the benefit of the aggressor. 

please point out examples of what you are talking about

[Enthusiast]

2 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

please point out examples of what you are talking about

Remember the time you pooped in your hands and ran around showing it to everyone. Like that.

[zlemflolia]

33 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

Remember the time you pooped in your hands and ran around showing it to everyone. Like that.

7 hours ago, usagi said:

some varied and interesting food for thought on this issue:

 

this was great yanis had the best takes we need neutrality agreement for ukraine made by biden and putin immediately and to remove troops and immediately provide material aid unconditionally to everyone in ukraine, except nazis

[usagi]

14 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

this was great yanis had the best takes we need neutrality agreement for ukraine made by biden and putin immediately and to remove troops and immediately provide material aid unconditionally to everyone in ukraine, except nazis

that's nice, did you also note the part at 1:01:05 where he clearly points out that the whole nazi thing is a red herring? here it is for your convenience:

A brief comment regarding the Azov Nazis. look, I come from a country where we had Nazis in parliament, the third largest party. that doesn't make the Greeks Nazis. so yes, there are Ukrainian Nazis, so what? this doesn't take away from the liberation struggle taking place today in Kharkiv, in Kiev, and so on. so let's- every country has its Nazis. even the best countries have them. there is no such thing as a homogenous country.

how does that align with the shit you've been posting where you pretend evil Ukrainian Nazis are responsible for the conflict, therefore the Ukrainian side as a whole is responsible for this war, they're putting their own in harm's way by not standing down and allowing the Russians to trample over them, they're massacring their own people in the east, etc?

Edited March 21, 2022 by usagi

[zazen]

50 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

anything but the truth is an attempt to muddy the waters to the benefit of the aggressor. 

No one wants fake news in the thread but not all of Hermolias posts have been like that.

My main point is that he is allowed to post and we should all aim to refrain from deeply personal attacks.

Some light snarking allowed I guess this being watmm

 

[zazen]

So surely the only way this can end is by a peace deal? But the tactical question is when and on what terms. The Russians know that if they just wreck everything and make life hell for civilians then that pushes Ukraine towards a deal sooner. Ukraine have done well militarily but surely there's no way they can actually repel the Russians back to the border. Its more that they can make things difficult and expensive enough for Russia that they also accept a deal.

You could make a utilitarian case that the best outcome for civilians is a peace deal asap, followed up by international pressure and support to enable Ukraine to stand up to whatever shenanigans Putin pulls next.