How does the World view America these days?

[Braintree]

Sure, it's a rule in English that "they" generally refers to a group, but I've always used it to refer to a person that I want to keep anonymous or someone I don't really know. Also, it can refer to someone that does not have a defined gender yet. Example:

Person 1: "There was a person in a heavy cloak earlier."

Person 2: "What did they do?"

Person 1: "They walked right by me."

All of the above is technically correct in English. I'm not really sure why so many people want to harp on the use of "they" to fit a tight definition. And as Auxien alluded, our languages are always in flux.

Ben Shapiro and those of his ilk clearly have an agenda and aren't interested in using reason to find what's reasonable.

[Rubin Farr]

The scumbag republican ex-governor of Kentucky pardons a man who decapitated his wife and stuffed her headless body in a barrel, also another murderer, a convicted child rapist, and a woman who threw her baby in the trash at a flea market.  This is Trump's party.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/defeated-governor-pardons-man-convicted-of-decapitating-woman-and-stuffing-her-body-into-barrel-200110740.html

[ambermonk]

More alt-right shenanigans

 

[goDel]

9 hours ago, Braintree said:

All of the above is technically correct in English. I'm not really sure why so many people want to harp on the use of "they" to fit a tight definition. And as Auxien alluded, our languages are always in flux.

Fair. Languages are indeed in flux. 

The tight definition is mostly about peoples experience on how certain words are used. It is useful to note that although language is constantly in flux, that doesn't mean that people change their use of common words they already use on a daily basis. Words that are "common" are basically set in stone.

You can introduce a new concept, like Google, and with popularity, in a short time everyone will use it in daily speech if they say they are searching the internet. Language changes faster when everyone has direct and frequent experience. 

Which is not what is happening here. People dont have direct and frequent experience. And worse, the idea is to change the meaning of an already commonly used word. 

If people still think this is the way to go, that's fine. But please be aware you're fighting an uphill battle. Which goes beyond the cultural acceptence of gender fluidity. You're basically forcing your way into words people already use on a daily basis. That's not how language typically evolve, I'd argue.

[Zephyr_Nova]

Er... words people use on a daily basis developing meanings beyond what they meant decades ago is exactly how language evolves. Gay used to exclusively be a common word for happy, sick used to just mean ill... which used to just mean sick... dank didn't have anything to do with weed or memes.  All of these are words that were used on a regular basis long before their meanings evolved.  Where is this uphill battle you speak of?

[dingformung]

6 hours ago, goDel said:

Fair. Languages are indeed in flux. 

The tight definition is mostly about peoples experience on how certain words are used. It is useful to note that although language is constantly in flux, that doesn't mean that people change their use of common words they already use on a daily basis. Words that are "common" are basically set in stone.

You can introduce a new concept, like Google, and with popularity, in a short time everyone will use it in daily speech if they say they are searching the internet. Language changes faster when everyone has direct and frequent experience. 

Which is not what is happening here. People dont have direct and frequent experience. And worse, the idea is to change the meaning of an already commonly used word. 

If people still think this is the way to go, that's fine. But please be aware you're fighting an uphill battle. Which goes beyond the cultural acceptence of gender fluidity. You're basically forcing your way into words people already use on a daily basis. That's not how language typically evolve, I'd argue.

I understand your sentiment but in case of "they" as a singular pronoun the earlier described usage is by now not uncommon as far as I know. It's not that any of us here invented that.

[Braintree]

It's not an "uphill battle" to use they to refer to anonymous people. It's been used like that for decades. The uphill battle that's being fought is by alt right people like Ben Shapiro. Language is going to change.

If you're pissed off about the use of 'they' then you should positively be enraged by the use of 'literally.'

[Nebraska]

 

[goDel]

On 12/14/2019 at 1:43 PM, Zephyr_Nova said:

Er... words people use on a daily basis developing meanings beyond what they meant decades ago is exactly how language evolves. Gay used to exclusively be a common word for happy, sick used to just mean ill... which used to just mean sick... dank didn't have anything to do with weed or memes.  All of these are words that were used on a regular basis long before their meanings evolved.  Where is this uphill battle you speak of?

To get people to use "they" in the sense that carries a meaning which is sensitive towards the gender issue. 

On 12/14/2019 at 7:31 PM, Braintree said:

It's not an "uphill battle" to use they to refer to anonymous people. It's been used like that for decades. The uphill battle that's being fought is by alt right people like Ben Shapiro. Language is going to change.

If you're pissed off about the use of 'they' then you should positively be enraged by the use of 'literally.'

For the record: I'm not pissed off about anything. 

Language changes. That's a given. The way it changes is more where this discussion is, as far as I'm concerned.

I've got not issues with your or others position on this, btw. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm in the "lets grab a beer" phase and onto the next subject. You've got your opinions. I have mine. Party time. That rhymes, sort of.

 

[Zephyr_Nova]

2 minutes ago, goDel said:

To get people to use "they" in the sense that carries a meaning which is sensitive towards the gender issue. 

I'm not sure what the controversy is. People who don't want to identify with either gender need a gender neutral term, "they" has already been used in that context for a long time, so it comes more naturally to people than just creating a brand new term.  People who were brought up a certain way may struggle with the grammar.  That's fine - they only need to struggle with it if they happen to be friends with someone who expects it of them.  Otherwise use the language you're comfortable with.  What's the uphill battle here?

[goDel]

I'm talking about the normal/cis people who haven't got a clue (generally speaking). Might be that I'm actually have a different discussion. Dunno. It's just that the "they" of people who don't identify with either gender have a different "they" than the people oblivious to this issue. And the question is to what extent this specific meaning will carry over to the larger population. Which generally speaking would be the idea, right? If you drop the notion that the larger population uses it this way, that's fine. In that case, it's kinda like what were doing here: a small community with their own meaning for some words. 

[dingformung]

 

[auxien]

as humans, language in many ways defines our experience and seemingly our reality

but also it definitely doesn’t and reality is what it is with or without anything we call it or without us at all. don’t think this half of things is considered enough.
 

[dingformung]

All Finnish people are transgenders.

[Zephyr_Nova]

2 hours ago, goDel said:

...the "they" of people who don't identify with either gender have a different "they" than the people oblivious to this issue. 

Yes, there will always be people oblivious to the issue, and so it will continue to not affect them.

2 hours ago, goDel said:

...the question is to what extent this specific meaning will carry over to the larger population. Which generally speaking would be the idea, right? 

Right.

2 hours ago, goDel said:

If you drop the notion that the larger population uses it this way, that's fine. In that case, it's kinda like what were doing here: a small community with their own meaning for some words. 

The larger population (those who care at least) will begin to also use it this way where appropriate, if they happen to encounter people who don't identify with either gender.  People like that "prove me wrong" guy will continue to be dinks, and will become the cranky out-of-touch curmudgeons of tomorrow.  Not a big deal.

[Rubin Farr]

14 year old student allegedly beaten by multiple kids on the school bus for wearing a Trump hat:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/boy-allegedly-beaten-school-bus-183816924.html

[ignatius]

21 hours ago, darreichungsform said:

All Finnish people are transgenders.

seems to be working out well for them. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanna_Marin

also, america... home to continuous awful violent crimes perpetrated by/against children

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/us/barnard-student-tessa-majors-stabbing-court-suspect/index.html

(CNN)The 13-year-old arrested in connection with the fatal stabbing of Barnard College freshman Tessa Majors will make a court appearance on Tuesday.

The teen will appear for a probable cause hearing, according to online court records. He was last in court on Friday for a pre-petition hearing and was "remanded to the Administration for Children's Services for secure detention," according to a statement from the New York City Law Department.

Majors, 18, was walking through Morningside Park, near the school's campus, on December 11 when police believe she was attacked by between one and three assailants, according to New York Police Department Chief of Patrol Services Rodney Harrison.

Tuesday, a 14-year-old boy -- whom detectives believe could be tied to Majors' death -- fled from a car as he was on his way to speak to investigators at a New York City precinct, according to a law enforcement source.

[dingformung]

Yes, I'm a fan of Sanna Marin.

But as Finnish has no gender specific pronouns and as language shapes the way we think it must mean they're all transgenders, logically.

[Braintree]

5 hours ago, Rubin Farr said:

14 year old student allegedly beaten by multiple kids on the school bus for wearing a Trump hat:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/boy-allegedly-beaten-school-bus-183816924.html

On a similar note, I hung out with some guys this weekend that put a UFC match on and a MAGA douche got his jaw broken.

https://www.mmamania.com/ufc-245-results-stream-fight-card-start-time-predictions-odds-highlights-usman-covington-mma/2019/12/15/21022012/ufc-245-full-fight-video-highlights-usman-covington-holloway-volkanovski-nunes-espn-ppv-de-randamie

[Ethel]

1 hour ago, darreichungsform said:

Yes, I'm a fan of Sanna Marin.

But as Finnish has no gender specific pronouns and as language shapes the way we think it must mean they're all transgenders, logically.

It actually does. Welcome to the corruption of thought.

[Braintree]

I generally don't like to watch fighting but there's something satisfying about watching a racist get his ass handed to him by a Nigerian man.

[Nebraska]

then:

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nebraska

[ignatius]

8 hours ago, darreichungsform said:

Yes, I'm a fan of Sanna Marin.

But as Finnish has no gender specific pronouns and as language shapes the way we think it must mean they're all transgenders, logically.

maybe we need a "how does the world view finland" thread?

 

[Candiru]

That lady gets it. Fuck work. 

[dingformung]

Finland's bosses:

I think that's relevant in the America thread