Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[ARPA]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/pegasus-israel-ukraine-russia.html

[ARPA]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukrainian-president-asked-biden-not-to-sanction-abramovich-to-facilitate-peace-talks-11648053860

[zlemflolia]

4 hours ago, zero said:

exactly man. as much as I would like all the other peaceful stuff you said to happen, I don't seriously believe it ever will. I mean just look at the history of mankind. tribes battling it out with one another. white dudes sailing around slaughtering the locals. there is a part of human nature that this desire to fight with other groups is ingrained, comes from the animal part of our DNA. militaries are never going to go away as long as different countries, languages, ethnicities, etc. are all present. there is never going to be a global peace on this planet unless maybe one tribe conquers all, which is what these arrogant dickheads like Hitler or Putin think they can do.   

no, it's not in human nature.  this is a bullshit argument.  we can definitely achieve a borderless global society with no ruling class where there is no reason or even capability of waging large scale war.  the way is by universalizing war by creating a constant class war against any agents of hierarchical ordering of society or some shit.  this negativity is bullshit.  global peace unless one tribe conquers all? no.  when we achieve communism only.

[zero]

oh for fucks sake

[Milwaukeeeee]

15 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

no, it's not in human nature.  this is a bullshit argument.  we can definitely achieve a borderless global society with no ruling class where there is no reason or even capability of waging large scale war.  the way is by universalizing war by creating a constant class war against any agents of hierarchical ordering of society or some shit.  this negativity is bullshit.  global peace unless one tribe conquers all? no.  when we achieve communism only.

You have cero idea how human behaviour works by default. In every society there is always a hierarchy, or some people with more economical status than others, becuase it is the way it is. In the USSR the "NEPmen" are proof of that, people with more arrange of options for well being, better housing and stuff, and more wealth power due to their bussiness activity, than a regullar citizen in a supposed communist state

[zlemflolia]

5 minutes ago, Milwaukeeeee said:

You have cero idea how human behaviour works by default. In every society there is always a hierarchy, or some people with more economical status than others, becuase it is the way it is. In the USSR the "NEPmen" are proof of that, people with more arrange of options for well being, better housing and stuff, and more wealth power due to their bussiness activity, than a regullar citizen in a supposed communist state

stop being a war apologist, humanity is very capable of overcoming war, maybe my post I wrote in 5 minutes doesn't explain the method future humans will use.  and USSR did not achieve communism and only achieved early stages of socialism so yeah you are right there were issues

Edited March 23, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[zero]

here we go........again........the never ending argument over cum.....

Zeff - are you a bot? you don't seem to understand much about humans and their behavior. 

[Milwaukeeeee]

6 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

stop being a war apologist, humanity is very capable of overcoming war, maybe my post I wrote in 5 minutes doesn't explain the method future humans will use.  and USSR did not achieve communism and only achieved early stages of socialism so yeah you are right there were issues

You cannot elude the fact that the human desire of material power and being burgueoise is going to be always there. And my post has nothing to do with war or being a war apologist

[zazen]

I mean, that is the point of communism. We can facepalm it now but 100 years ago lots of people took the idea very seriously.

At least it suggests a method to get to no war. Anyone else got any ideas?

Other than:

1. Legalise weed

2. ????

3. No more war!

 

[zazen]

If we're talking utopias I always liked Iain M Banks Culture - the idea being once you get as far as (say) the asteroid belt you have infinite resources and are able to transition to a post-scarcity society that is basically communism but completely unrecognisable as such because its post-scarcity.

Also chuck in a lot of other ideas about space-based civilization being fundamentally different:

Quote

The thought processes of a tribe, a clan, a country or a nation-state are essentially two-dimensional, and the nature of their power depends on the same flatness. Territory is all-important; resources, living-space, lines of communication; all are determined by the nature of the plane (that the plane is in fact a sphere is irrelevant here); that surface, and the fact the species concerned are bound to it during their evolution, determines the mind-set of a ground-living species. The mind-set of an aquatic or avian species is, of course, rather different.

Essentially, the contention is that our currently dominant power systems cannot long survive in space; beyond a certain technological level a degree of anarchy is arguably inevitable and anyway preferable.

To survive in space, ships/habitats must be self-sufficient, or very nearly so; the hold of the state (or the corporation) over them therefore becomes tenuous if the desires of the inhabitants conflict significantly with the requirements of the controlling body. On a planet, enclaves can be surrounded, besieged, attacked; the superior forces of a state or corporation - hereafter referred to as hegemonies - will tend to prevail. In space, a break-away movement will be far more difficult to control, especially if significant parts of it are based on ships or mobile habitats. The hostile nature of the vacuum and the technological complexity of life support mechanisms will make such systems vulnerable to outright attack, but that, of course, would risk the total destruction of the ship/habitat, so denying its future economic contribution to whatever entity was attempting to control it.

from 'a few notes about the Culture' http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm

 

[zkom]

There's something going on in the Putin administration

Anatoly Chubais who was Putin's long time advisor has quit and fled the country https://news.yahoo.com/longtime-putin-advisor-reportedly-resigned-130847160.html

Also apparently Sergei Shoigu who is the minister of defense and a general of the army hasn't made a public appearance for 12 days. Pretty weird during a war. Link in Russian https://theins.ru/news/249548

Besides that Russian commanders keep getting killed in Ukraine https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-every-russian-commander-killed-fighting-ukraine-war-1691064

[zlemflolia]

2 hours ago, zero said:

here we go........again........the never ending argument over cum.....

Zeff - are you a bot? you don't seem to understand much about humans and their behavior. 

and you know so much? thinking war is inherent to human nature? thinking we are too stupid to ever find a way to overcome it?  im sorry but just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you are right and i am wrong.  i am an optimist, i think we can overcome war.  you seem to think it's inherent to human behavior and we should just get used to wars happening? no thanks.  and calling me a bot? lmao.  talk about antiintellectual

2 hours ago, zazen said:

If we're talking utopias I always liked Iain M Banks Culture - the idea being once you get as far as (say) the asteroid belt you have infinite resources and are able to transition to a post-scarcity society that is basically communism but completely unrecognisable as such because its post-scarcity.

Also chuck in a lot of other ideas about space-based civilization being fundamentally different:

 

seems over optimistic and sort of techno-utopian.  i guarantee you capitalist hierarchical power structures can maintain themselves in space.  they can add in oxygen killswitches if they use proprietary software and hardware, which is the current trend in space technology.

[zlemflolia]

2 hours ago, Milwaukeeeee said:

You cannot elude the fact that the human desire of material power and being burgueoise is going to be always there. And my post has nothing to do with war or being a war apologist

this is beginning to become less relevant to the thread so i will stop here, but the entire point of communism is to eliminate the concept of the social position of being bourgeoisie (owning class) by oppressing them into nonexistence and universalizing the proletarian class, thereby allowing it to abolish itself as a class and instead let it grasp its own destiny with the owning-vs-working class dichotomy and its implied struggle being transcended beyond.  of course, other class struggles will emerge.  but the primary one now is working vs owning class.  communism is a perpetual revolution to overcome the present state of things as marx approximately said.  owning vs working class is the current historical struggle of our few centuries.  a perpetual revolution is understanding history and the present, seeing why it is how it is, and invoking warfare against that which prevents us from uniting all of humanity, free of all prior biases

Edited March 23, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[Satans Little Helper]

[cwmbrancity]

4 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

this is beginning to become less relevant to the thread so i will stop here, but the entire point of communism is to eliminate the concept of the social position of being bourgeoisie (owning class) by oppressing them into nonexistence and universalizing the proletarian class, thereby allowing it to abolish itself as a class and instead let it grasp its own destiny with the owning-vs-working class dichotomy and its implied struggle being transcended beyond.  of course, other class struggles will emerge.  but the primary one now is working vs owning class.  communism is a perpetual revolution to overcome the present state of things as marx approximately said.  owning vs working class is the current historical struggle of our few centuries.  a perpetual revolution is understanding history and the present, seeing why it is how it is, and invoking warfare against that which prevents us from uniting all of humanity, free of all prior biases

Fuck all to do with Ukraine mate. Again.

[zlemflolia]

3 minutes ago, cwmbrancity said:

Fuck all to do with Ukraine mate. Again.

im sorry you cant read a chain of posts and understand how a conversation got to where it was, i was the only one in the reply chain who decided to end that offshoot conversation and explicitly called it out as not relevant.  but you decided to keep it going, as i have done once again in this post, so it is time to stop, you included.  im sorry this is hard to grasp.  these type of "policing" posts cause more spam than offshoot conversations not involving you.

Edited March 23, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[brian trageskin]

[cwmbrancity]

2 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

im sorry you cant read a chain of posts and understand how a conversation got to where it was, i was the only one in the reply chain who decided to end that offshoot conversation and explicitly called it out as not relevant.  but you decided to keep it going, as i have done once again in this post, so it is time to stop, you included.  im sorry this is hard to grasp.  these type of "policing" posts cause more spam than offshoot conversations not involving you.

 

[usagi]

[Dragon]

[zero]

Quote

and you know so much?

yes

Quote

thinking war is inherent to human nature?

yes

Quote

thinking we are too stupid to ever find a way to overcome it?

yes

Quote

im sorry but just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you are right and i am wrong.

we disagree because you are wrong

Quote

i am an optimist

optimist is not what I think of you when I read your posts

 

Quote

you seem to think it's inherent to human behavior and we should just get used to wars happening?

yes

Quote

and calling me a bot?

yes

Quote

talk about antiintellectual

you spelled that wrong

[ambermonk]

Bruh can we just move every single one of his posts from this thread to the Marxism one? Or better yet have a filter that automatically does it?

[chenGOD]

It went downhill as soon as communism was mentioned. So all that talk will Be henceforth be moved to the Marxist thought thread. 
 

So back on topic…

Putin's army is stumbling in Ukraine. Did the West get Russia's war machine wrong?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-army-ukraine-war-1.6393996

[ambermonk]

2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

It went downhill as soon as communism was mentioned. So all that talk will Be henceforth be moved to the Marxist thought thread. 
 

So back on topic…

Putin's army is stumbling in Ukraine. Did the West get Russia's war machine wrong?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-army-ukraine-war-1.6393996

More evidence suggesting widespread disarray in their operations

Quote

"I tell you, even Chechnya wasn't this f-ing bad. This is so FUBAR. Let me tell you, we've got bombed by our own plane. I don't even f-ing know. This is a f-ing circus, not a military operation."

But again, this doesn't mean we can rest easy. It's been said that Putin has no plan for this whole thing. But if he gets backed into a corner, we can't rule him out resorting to chemical or nuclear warfare.

A coup in Moscow sure would be nice right now though.

[cwmbrancity]

Regime change is not without its own problems.

There was a window in the early 90’s where the entire Russian nuclear arsenal could’ve been safeguarded. It wasn’t.

Be careful what you wish for.