Mastering your tunes

[xox]

Mastering is a minor problem!

Making a track that’s worth being mastered and shared with others is much harder.

[Squee]

6 minutes ago, xox said:

Mastering is a minor problem!

Making a track that’s worth being mastered and shared with others is much harder.

Spoiler

Have you ever visited the YLC?

 

[dingformung]

2 minutes ago, Squee said:

9 minutes ago, xox said:

Mastering is a minor problem!

Making a track that’s worth being mastered and shared with others is much harder.

  Hide contents

Have you ever visited the YLC?

What do you think about the tracks in YLC, Squee? Spill the beans, tell us how other people suck and you are greater than them. Then make a generic dub track with corny as fuck piano drops, lol

[Squee]

29 minutes ago, dingformung said:

What do you think about the tracks in YLC, Squee? Spill the beans, tell us how other people suck and you are greater than them. Then make a generic dub track with corny as fuck piano drops, lol

I didn't say that. But people sure post a lot of stuff.

[vkxwz]

Mastering is boring and useless but I will bless you all with a golden mixing tip:

Compressors are wack

If a tiny bit of a sample of section or your track is too loud, render to sample, then use renoise's sample editor(or something equivalent) to redraw the waveform(like you're in paint) at that part so it's not so fucking loud, easy as piss thank me later

[Nil]

Let's agree to disagree then. Compressors are fantastic devices that can do so much more than utilitarian gain reduction.

[vkxwz]

Just now, Nil said:

Let's agree to disagree then. Compressors are fantastic devices that can do so much more than utilitarian gain reduction.

They are cool when you overcompress some drums on purpose but that's about it.

If you're doing live recorded stuff like vocals sure use one but other than they they're trash

[xox]

1 hour ago, Squee said:

  Hide contents

Have you ever visited the YLC?

 

 ...i was talking about my own music.  

Edited June 20, 2020 by xox

[Nil]

@vkxwz (buss) compression can work wonders on electronic music as well. I'm not even talking about EDM, but think Actress, Chris Clark, Jackson & his computer band... and countless others. There's the obvious pumping thingie (that can be cool at times), as well as tons of subtler way to use a compressor. If done right, it can emphasize a tune's movement in a beautiful way.

[chim]

Compressors for track-wise transient shaping is a very delicate art, I think it more often than not ruins the natural decay of a sound. Take a drum hit for instance, you often have to shorten the sample once you've compressed it to avoid ugly pump tails. It forces you into a pop sound. 

People will use comps liberally on anything, pads and reverb, there's no natural soundstage left. Half the synthwave out there is barely listenable despite awesome tracks because they can't refrain from maxing the buss compressor. Even the best compressors in the world have huge danger spots and probably do best just coloring the track with a near minimum of compression. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by chim

[Nil]

Hehe. Basic methodology is easy, it’s either :

compress > EQ > limit > dither

or :

EQ > compress > limit > dither

Compression is optional though.

Sometimes, a tad of saturation and/or stereo remodeling can help. One might prefer clipping to limiting, or a mixture of both.

It’s all quite fascinating really, as theoretically there’s nothing exotic involved in the process. Yet a tune mastered by 10 different persons will most likely sound very different from a version to another.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Nil

[TubularCorporation]

On 6/20/2020 at 11:12 AM, Nil said:

Let's agree to disagree then. Compressors are fantastic devices that can do so much more than utilitarian gain reduction.

Yeah, compressors are a tone control tool.

[TubularCorporation]

On 6/20/2020 at 12:24 PM, chim said:

Compressors for track-wise transient shaping is a very delicate art, I think it more often than not ruins the natural decay of a sound. Take a drum hit for instance, you often have to shorten the sample once you've compressed it to avoid ugly pump tails. It forces you into a pop sound. 

People will use comps liberally on anything, pads and reverb, there's no natural soundstage left. Half the synthwave out there is barely listenable despite awesome tracks because they can't refrain from maxing the buss compressor. Even the best compressors in the world have huge danger spots and probably do best just coloring the track with a near minimum of compression. 

Compressors BEFORE reverb can be pretty useful, and sending the dry signal to the sidechain of a compressor after a reverb to duck it can be really nice, too.

[mause]

does typing in a comedy font make boring shit more interesting? worth a go i guess..

it depends what you want from the master, just uploading to soundcloud or something like that all you really need to do it get a free LUFs meter and get it sitting around -12dB LUFs so it soundcloud doesnt fuck wit the dynamics of the tracks. essentially, when you upload they will analyse the audio file and apply something similar to a normaliser..making sure the traks are around the same dynamic range and average loudness also helps you keep a consistency across your music so one track isnt bastard loud and another teeny and quiet. 

its all just very very fine eq-ing and veeery slight compressor work to get the LUFs to a nice, consistent amount, tho of course its very project dependant so..yeah its kind of a part of the production process ideally..maybe idk?  if u wanna sell it or get it pressed, best off going to a professional for sure they know wot they doin, it can be pricy depending on where you go but fuck like, the difference it makes is bananas

personally, automatic mastering services like landr and even the auto master in Ozone seem like a bad idea..especially if you want to be giving the people listening the best experience of your music, take control of the sound and learn to master OR get a pro with experience in your respective musical field to have a go at it..landr makes electronic music sound a bit flat imho, doesnt sound as bad on band projects with a good mix, i think its designed more with Rock sorta things in mind so..for us, i dont think its the best move really.

 

 

[vkxwz]

It definitely makes me not want to read it at all, that's for sure

[snack master]

i'd love to hear the before and after mastering of a track from a WATMM-er.  does anybody have an example they'd like to share?  i'm especially interested in one that the original artist / composer is satisfied with.

[Nil]

If anyone wants to submit a 16/32 bars segment of a track of his/hers for us to do the ultimate WATMM EKT mastering crash test death match, I’m in.

[Grain Bastard]

Fun mastering tip :-

Use any track off Syro as a reference and spend eternity trying every single plugin in the world trying to get even remotely close

 

I’m all for quick and dirty home mastering though - for that I believe that being gentle with tools is the key. A couple of dB if gain reduction here and there and light touches with eq. Any more is probably best fixed in the mix.

 

It always seems to be discouraged and I agree with many of the obvious points like a ‘proper mastering engineer has better gear’ (duh!) etc but people can learn and improve, buy better stuff etc.

 

A good mix is essential but even basic home mastering ‘should’ sound better than having none applied at all.

 

just mho.

[Soloman Tump]

Have really enjoyed some of Bizzy's late night sessions, he rinses out some amazing tunes.  WIll watch his production vids, thanks for sharing.

He gave me a demo CD at the bangface weekender about 8 years ago after we got chatting at the bar, such a decent geezer! And I was fairly wasted but maybe he was too.

On 6/19/2020 at 3:55 PM, J3FF3R00 said:

Somewhat related...

My man Bizzy B (legendary OG Junglist pioneer) has been putting up production videos, largely focusing on Jungle/DNB tips, but the info applies to just about every genre. Recently, he’s been giving pre-mastering tips, mostly aimed at beginners. 

 

 

 

He is definitely worth a watch/follow (if anything, to check out his “Amen Therapy” live sets... honestly, they have been some of the biggest sources of joy for me throughout this whole pandemic quarantine situation). 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Soloman Tump

[mause]

16 hours ago, snack master said:

i'd love to hear the before and after mastering of a track from a WATMM-er.  does anybody have an example they'd like to share?  i'm especially interested in one that the original artist / composer is satisfied with.

heres a snippet from the premaster and the master for the track by koschitsky. might work on a quick and dirty home master version but wont promise anythin..if anyone wants to have a pop at it feel free

fx22_master_1-fx22.wav fx22_master_2-B1._fx22_KoschitzkyM.wav

[Nil]

Sorry but I struggle to hear a finished mix here, nor something reliably representative of the full tune : it's impossible to tell if the track will remain beat-driven or if melodies will be added later ? In both cases, the tune will require different treatment.

The main issue here are the drums IMO : they are quite saturated, yet too spiky / too dynamic, which prevents transparent and / or musical additional, competitive loudness. There's not much hierarchy in the drum kit, so everything stands in the foreground, upfront, and consequently EQing that mix is super challenging. I bet fixing that kick drum would already makes things a lot better though.

The raw esthetic isn't the issue here though,  if the drums were more erm contained (still talking about the mix, not the drum programming)  it would be a whole different story.

I gave it an honest try, twice... and trashed the 2 attempts. The masters were better than the mix, but I wasn't satisfied. I'm not sure the artist would have been either TBH.

What worked : 
- low-ratio compression gave it some much needed density (but didn't address peaks fully, wasn't the point here anyway) and overall movement
- along some low-end remodeling, a relatively narrowish dB boost at ~ 160 Hz (in the mids, as in M/S) made the bassline fuller and more pleasant (it's not solid enough in the mix (to my ears), especially for such a drill n bass, post-jungle track), but also brought up some nastiness in the kick / drums. 
- a super gentle / broad, stereo, 1dB cut ~ 900 Hz pocketed the snares and opened up the mix nicely
- it was relatively easy to make the tune wider without losing its focus / center solidity (and without compromising mono-compatibility either).

What didn't work :
- various degrees / sorts of saturations to tame peaks. It raised the RMS, but wasn't convincing enough.
- I gave both clipping and limiting a try, and nothing sounded good enough either. I prefer to limit/clip last, once I've got nice balance / density with EQ/comp, it's always worked better for me that.

Maybe I should have tried to raise the level first, and then to EQ etc... into the limiter / clipper.

I hope that post comes out in a positive, constructive way.

PS : the main loop was roughly at -18 LU (peaks at -1,8 dB FS), raised it to a bit more than -10 (peaks at -.5dB FS, true peak), tops. I suppose I could get much cleaner results if ignoring loudness imperatives.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Nil

[snack master]

thanks for sharing @mause

[thawkins]

15 hours ago, Nil said:

Sorry but I struggle to hear a finished mix here, nor something reliably representative of the full tune : it's impossible to tell if the track will remain beat-driven or if melodies will be added later ? In both cases, the tune will require different treatment.

The main issue here are the drums IMO : they are quite saturated, yet too spiky / too dynamic, which prevents transparent and / or musical additional, competitive loudness. There's not much hierarchy in the drum kit, so everything stands in the foreground, upfront, and consequently EQing that mix is super challenging. I bet fixing that kick drum would already makes things a lot better though.

The raw esthetic isn't the issue here though,  if the drums were more erm contained (still talking about the mix, not the drum programming)  it would be a whole different story.

I gave it an honest try, twice... and trashed the 2 attempts. The masters were better than the mix, but I wasn't satisfied. I'm not sure the artist would have been either TBH.

What worked : 
- low-ratio compression gave it some much needed density (but didn't address peaks fully, wasn't the point here anyway) and overall movement
- along some low-end remodeling, a relatively narrowish dB boost at ~ 160 Hz (in the mids, as in M/S) made the bassline fuller and more pleasant (it's not solid enough in the mix (to my ears), especially for such a drill n bass, post-jungle track), but also brought up some nastiness in the kick / drums. 
- a super gentle / broad, stereo, 1dB cut ~ 900 Hz pocketed the snares and opened up the mix nicely
- it was relatively easy to make the tune wider without losing its focus / center solidity (and without compromising mono-compatibility either).

What didn't work :
- various degrees / sorts of saturations to tame peaks. It raised the RMS, but wasn't convincing enough.
- I gave both clipping and limiting a try, and nothing sounded good enough either. I prefer to limit/clip last, once I've got nice balance / density with EQ/comp, it's always worked better for me that.

Maybe I should have tried to raise the level first, and then to EQ etc... into the limiter / clipper.

I hope that post comes out in a positive, constructive way.

PS : the main loop was roughly at -18 LU (peaks at -1,8 dB FS), raised it to a bit more than -10 (peaks at -.5dB FS, true peak), tops. I suppose I could get much cleaner results if ignoring loudness imperatives.

On one hand, I would pay premium if someone destroyed my mix quality like that instead of just accepting the money and just putting my turd through their bespoke analog chain.

On the other hand, if I listen to those clips I don't find anything really bad with the mix at all, in fact it was pleasant to listen to (esp. the first clip), which is really uncommon for me in IDM type of music.

So it shows I have a lot of work to do.

By the way, is it not common to provide some reference tracks to the mastering person so that they have an idea what the artist wants, or is that more of a mixing thing?

[Nil]

Believe it or not, I spent a lot of time trying to write the most constructive post I could, and not to eventually come across as a total asshole. I'd should have phrased it differently now that I've re-read it, mea culpa. 

It can also be read as my double failure to achieve something worth sharing.

I'm by no mean criticizing the tune itself (it's pretty cool actually), but if I were asked to master that tune I'd suggest the artist to improve the drum mix so that in the end the track sounds as good as it can. It'll always sound so much better when fixed in the mix, no matter who masters it, and in my opinion here it's an easy, identifiable and quick fix.

It was easy for me to identify issues as I haven't spend the (emotional) effort, nor the time / energy / involvement writing and producing the tune. And because I know how reliable are my monitors. Not because I'm on par with Beau Thomas and Mandy Parnell (guess what, I'm definitely not :D)

The total lack of context / reference confused me too. From my experience, and from what I've witnessed / been told / read etc... it's much more effective to pick a 15/30 seconds long part of the track that sums what the tune is about (sonically and musically), and to spend most time working on that part. Here I have no clue what the entire track can be like :(

I'd rather be suggested modifications that could improve my track (and learn something / improve my skills in the process) rather than have my work mastered no matter what, for a sub-par result (or, if you prefer, a result that wouldn't meet my expectations). Actually it happened to one my tracks : the whole mini-LP mastering sessions went super smooth, then for the final track I honestly did a terrible, terrible, terrible job when mixing it. The mastering engineer did it best, but in the end suggested a few alterations. I came back at my place, reworked the tune, came back the next day, let the ME validate the revision (or not).  He did, and he did a great job mastering it.

Whenever possible, I'll now book a listening session with my mastering engineer a week or two before the mastering session, so that I have time to fix whatever issues (s)he hears, and to do so directly in the mix. It'll always sound so much better.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Nil

[Nil]

re: reference tracks : you can use them whenever you feel like. When collaborating with someone else, it can help so much to understand each other. Sound engineering is a collaboration, with the score / performance / arrangement, and  between people with different yet complimentary skills and visions.

For instance, I read someone mentioning Syro as a reference... I'd go for Rushup Edge instead. YMMV of course.