the watmm GAS thread

[TubularCorporation]

Oh  cool, the only optical trackballs I've used were a couple Logitechs. Maybe they had more than one sensor, but whatever they used was all behind one little IR filter so you couldn't see any of it or block individual sensors if there was more than one, so I thought they were all like that.

Edited August 22, 2022 by TubularCorporation

[Grain Bastard]

18 hours ago, thawkins said:

I know there are gamer mice with switchable dpi for precision stuff. There should also be autocad mice with lockable axes and at least one maker - Kensington - seems to allow this feature in software. I need to research more.

AutoCAD locks axis with a function key directly in the software - I would guess the mouse just has a macro button to assign the function key rather than the mouse actually locking the axis.

[thawkins]

3 hours ago, Grain Bastard said:

AutoCAD locks axis with a function key directly in the software - I would guess the mouse just has a macro button to assign the function key rather than the mouse actually locking the axis.

This makes sense. Of course Ableton does not have axis lock functionality, so this approach is dead in the water.

[luke viia]

you guys have the weirdest gas

[thawkins]

2 minutes ago, luke viia said:

you guys have the weirdest gas

Too weird to live, too rare to die.

[Taupe Beats]

Someone is trying to sell a PlayDifferently Model 1 on my local craigslist for $2800 used. Which, LOL. But it also brought me back to one of my most pressing questions about gear:

Why in the hell has Pioneer not made a true hybrid DJ/live mixer for clubs? Is there anything else they'd absolutely have to do beyond just adding 1/4" inputs for each channel (all channels can go Line level already)?

Even Roland's figured out that no one wants RCA anything for Line-level gear.

[TubularCorporation]

Re: trackballs with lockable motion, Kensington stuff has this. Assignable to a hotkey.

 

https://www.kensington.com/software/kensingtonworks/

 

EDIT: now I've got my eyes on one of those Expert trackballs, I've been having all kinds of mouse-related wrist and shoulder trouble the past year and a half since I started working from home again and I think it might help.

Edited August 22, 2022 by TubularCorporation

[PigeonSt]

On 8/21/2022 at 12:05 PM, thawkins said:

For some reason I am wondering if there exist any small form-factor trackball mice that could work also like the Nob with some keyboard shortcuts or even physical mouse button comboes. It would be really nice for fader-knob control in a DAW, for example.

This kind of thing probably does not exist, though.

I was thinking about this solution this year! And looking at a Nob, but I feel like having a Kensington Expert Trackball would be a better and more universal solution? Could cursor over to a knob in a vst click, hold a button for fine adjustment (shift in ableton?) and then adjust everything that way easily instead of dragging a mouse all over which is pretty frustrating. Why wouldn't this work even if you don't lock axis? I'm curious.

Oh I think Tube Corp was investigating above ^^

[thawkins]

3 hours ago, PigeonSt said:

I was thinking about this solution this year! And looking at a Nob, but I feel like having a Kensington Expert Trackball would be a better and more universal solution? Could cursor over to a knob in a vst click, hold a button for fine adjustment (shift in ableton?) and then adjust everything that way easily instead of dragging a mouse all over which is pretty frustrating. Why wouldn't this work even if you don't lock axis? I'm curious.

Oh I think Tube Corp was investigating above ^^

It should work even without axis locking, but since I don’t have any hands on experience using a DAW with neither trackballs nor the Nob, I was just theorizing about what features would be needed.

Somehow I am pretty sure that just getting a trackball mouse would be enough. 

[TubularCorporation]

Like I posted earlier, all Kensington trackballs have lockable axes, so you just need one of those.  The nice thing is the wired version (of the Pro Mouse at least) is cheaper AND better, apparently the wireless has some corners cut (plus it's wireless, which is just inherently worse).

 

I'm really leaning toward getting one now, if it works well enough with the X axis locked for writing automation I could sell my old Alphatrack, make back the cost of the trackball and free up some desk space.

 

Those mice with the little trackball on topseem like you'd just always be bumping the trackball when you were using it as a mouse...

Edited August 23, 2022 by TubularCorporation

[neurone]

22 hours ago, Taupe Beats said:

Why in the hell has Pioneer not made a true hybrid DJ/live mixer for clubs? Is there anything else they'd absolutely have to do beyond just adding 1/4" inputs for each channel (all channels can go Line level already)?

and if you just use an jack - to - rca cable, this will work ok , doesn't it ?

anyway I found out that pioneer mixers are  ok if you use digital pioneer player with it, but when you feed it with a pair of MKII or a synth or whatever, it's no good .

the DA input converters are too crisp and too trebbly IMO.  allen & heath dj mixers do a much better job for hybrid dj / live setups. (IMO again)

especially the ones wich have a full analogue signal path.

[Taupe Beats]

1 hour ago, neurone said:

and if you just use an jack - to - rca cable, this will work ok , doesn't it ?

anyway I found out that pioneer mixers are  ok if you use digital pioneer player with it, but when you feed it with a pair of MKII or a synth or whatever, it's no good .

the DA input converters are too crisp and too trebbly IMO.  allen & heath dj mixers do a much better job for hybrid dj / live setups. (IMO again)

especially the ones wich have a full analogue signal path.

Yes you can use a cable or adaptor for 1/4" to RCA, however that remains an unbalanced connection. I should have been clarified that the mixer I envision would have balanced 1/4" inputs.

None of this is critical stuff for an enduser, but it would be an advantage in many ways. Some of them fidelity-based, some of them just practical. Being able to setup/disconnect without having to unplug any DJ decks, for instance.

[TubularCorporation]

Balanced inputs really aren't necessary with line level signals unless you're dealing with LONG cable runs, and unbalanced can potentially sound better (also if you have to connect an unbalanced signal to a balanced input you lose either 3db or 6db compared to an unbalanced input).

 

Balanced OUTPUTS are pretty much mandatory on a mixer though, for sure.

 

In theory, RCA is a better connector than 1/4" because the area of contact is bigger and the entire connector is shielded, but in practice none of that really matters much and they're a pain in the ass.

[neurone]

On 8/24/2022 at 12:36 AM, TubularCorporation said:

Balanced inputs really aren't necessary with line level signals unless you're dealing with LONG cable runs, and unbalanced can potentially sound better (also if you have to connect an unbalanced signal to a balanced input you lose either 3db or 6db compared to an unbalanced input).

exactly .  and the 3or 6db loss is not a problem since you have gain control on the mixer input (-30db would be more a problem)

On 8/24/2022 at 12:36 AM, TubularCorporation said:

Balanced OUTPUTS are pretty much mandatory on a mixer though, for sure.

yes . especially if you directly feed a P.A. or powered speakers.

unbalanced ouputs are ok if you can use DI boxes or balancing transformers, or if the wire are not  too long and magnetic envrionement clean enough.

On 8/24/2022 at 12:36 AM, TubularCorporation said:

In theory, RCA is a better connector than 1/4" because the area of contact is bigger and the entire connector is shielded

both RCA or 1"4 unbalanced jacks are usually shielded - with a more or less effective shield accodring to materials and quality,

but they're equal on that point to me as far as we're talking unbalanced.

On 8/23/2022 at 8:44 PM, Taupe Beats said:

I should have been clarified that the mixer I envision would have balanced 1/4" inputs.

yeah balanced inputs options on DJ mixers you often don't have this. maybe on the fx return channels sometimes

 

 

[TubularCorporation]

5 hours ago, neurone said:

both RCA or 1"4 unbalanced jacks are usually shielded - with a more or less effective shield accodring to materials and quality,

but they're equal on that point to me as far as we're talking unbalanced.

Oh, in practice for sure.  In theory, the tip of a 1/4" jack isn't shielded from EMF or whatever else that' INSIDE the thing it's connected to, where an RCA connector is completely shielded through its entire path.  But in the real world, if that matters there's something badly wrong with whatever equipment it's plugged in to.  I mostly put it in there because I've seen it seriously claimed and I think it's funny.  Maybe it would be worth taking into account if you're patching your mixer into the space shuttle or something.

[TubularCorporation]

Oh, there is one piece of gear i still really, really want, but unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) it's rare and expensive so I don't expect to ever get it.  But it would be so, so nice. The Midas XL88 analog matrix mixer:

 

 

https://www.midasconsoles.com/product.html?modelCode=P0AHI

 

There's a beat up one on Reverb for $1300 right now, that's about as low as I see them get.  If only.

 

EDIT: the sad thing is I know enough about the theater and broadcast setting swhere this kind of stuff was used to know that a lot of them probably went straight into the garbage when they were upgraded to digital.

Edited August 26, 2022 by TubularCorporation

[marf]

Aphex mentions that mixer in the Syro interview

[marf]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:29 AM, Taupe Beats said:

 

Totally unrelated aside, I have fully come to the opinion that I hate gear influencer culture. All of it. It's just opening a cesspool of assholes getting way too much attention and clout. I think the impacts are bigger than people realize as well. Most people watching these channels have lived in a world where electronic music is dominant. Where synths are just as if not more familiar and prevalent as guitars. The culture is bigger than ever but still ripe for snake oil sales. The crap creators outweigh the good so I'd rather it all faded (I know it won't).

 

Hello, Im Hainbach

Not a huge Euro rack person, But I do want Euclidean Circles and that Rosssum Assimil8or. 

[TubularCorporation]

31 minutes ago, marf said:

Aphex mentions that mixer in the Syro interview

As far as I can tell it is literally perfect. I learned about ti when I was looking for info on DIY active matrix mixers that weren't variations of the same 4x5 circuit that everyone uses, and it kind of ruined that because everything else is so much less good than the XL88.

Edited August 26, 2022 by TubularCorporation

[marf]

What do you want to use it for? Or , how do you want to use it. Just curious

Edited August 26, 2022 by marf

[TubularCorporation]

Crazy feedback networks and just generally the sort of routing you can't get from a patchbay or a normal mixer. 

 

There is one thing it doesn't have, actually, that you see in some synth modules - all of the controls are unipolar.  So the one thing I would change is make everything bipolar, so instead of jsut being able to send all inputs to all outputs, you can also send all inputs to all ouputs INVERTED.  

 

I'll eventually make a cheap passive one and embrace all of the weird levelsand impedence issues and crosstalk that comes with it.

 

In the mean time, f I can solve all of the ground noise problems it was giving me, I still have that Roland M160 I got cheap and recapped, and I realized a few weeks ago that if I ignored all of the aux returns and used channel inputs instead, it would essentially be a basic 8x4 matrix mixer.

Edited August 26, 2022 by TubularCorporation

[marf]

Its in the Allen Strange book about matrix mixers. Some strange ghostly sounds you can get. I can't find the section. There is a term for it. 

Ill report back when I find it.

Ao with bipolar you could get some phasing effects maybe? I could see the worth for CV. Im curious how it opens up for audio.

You could send audio to monitors in rooms and mike up the rooms with sm57s. All with that mixer. Use effects and play with feedback that way. There is the pea soup thing I want to try. 

Great little article on feedback;

http://www.nicolascollins.com/texts/peasouphistoryOLD.pdf

 

Im trying to trust my ears. I send people stuff and they are like whatever. I think it might be dangerous to do that. Because most people want a finished track. Not bits of audio experiments you made. Saying that, here is my 606 through a compressor

Shit? https://vocaroo.com/1aQiUNbodROW

 

[TubularCorporation]

Bipolar with audio can be really useful with time based effects like reverb and delay.  Belnding two different reverbs that were fed normal and inverted versions of the same signal adds all kids of unpredictable phasing and stuff.  With a true stereo reverb, you can send a mono signal to one input but invert it at the other input.  It doesn't work with reverbs that sum the input to mono internally, though - that's how I accidentally found out the OTO Bam isn't actually a true stereo effect.

 

Also, you could do mid/side easily with a bipolar matrix mixer.

 

[marf]

12 hours ago, TubularCorporation said:

Bipolar with audio can be really useful with time based effects like reverb and delay.  Belnding two different reverbs that were fed normal and inverted versions of the same signal adds all kids of unpredictable phasing and stuff.  With a true stereo reverb, you can send a mono signal to one input but invert it at the other input.  It doesn't work with reverbs that sum the input to mono internally, though - that's how I accidentally found out the OTO Bam isn't actually a true stereo effect.

 

Also, you could do mid/side easily with a bipolar matrix mixer.

 

I didnt realize it didnt have pres. Just building a cheap passive matrix mixer might be better. You'll get all kinds of weirdness.  What kind of reverbs u using? I want to build a slinky reverb. Old DOD effects are sleepers too. Like the DOD R-880

[TubularCorporation]

A passive matrix mixer is different, I'd like to have both. I'll probably only ever have the passive one and eventually a CGS 5x5 when I finally get in to buiding Serge modules later this year and next year.

I'm not surprised it doesn't have pres, matrix mixers are pretty much always used for line level stuff in their normal environment.  I pretty much only use line mixers myself, so it wouldn't be an issue for me.

 

Right now for reverb I'm using the OTO BAM and an Alesis Wedge, but once I get around to making more cables I also have a Boss RV-70 and Se-50 in the rack.  I was using a Behringer V-Verb a lot for years, but my new interface doesn't have S/PDIF ad at some point between when I got the V-Verb and when I got the new interface one of the analog ins on the V-Verb died, so now I can't use it.  I've gone through and replaced everything in the input path that isn't surface mount, including the headers fo the ribbon cable to the main board, and it didn't do anything so for now it's retired.  I've got one of those 70s Pioneer spring reverbs for home stereos, but I don't use it much anymore.  I've been trading off most of my small collection of Eurorack stuff since I really don't like the tiny form factor, but I'm keeping a set of input and output modules, a multimode filter, one of those simple AI Synthesis pedal intefaces and an old, first-gen Intellijel spring reverb driver (I've got two or three old tanks lying around).  At some point I'll make a small power supply and put all of it in a box to use as a dedicated spring reverb with the option to insert the filter and/or guitar pedals in the feedback loop.

 

I'd also love to build a slinkyverb some day, and for quite a few years I've been toying with the idea of using some high power bone conductive transducers and pickups and making an electromechanical reverb that had maybe 24 tuned strings on some kind of soundboard that you would drive with the transducers and return with the pickups.  Essentially electromechanical sitar drone strings.  I've made a couple protoypes but haven't come up with a good design yet and it's pretty low on my project list right now.  I picked up a Sustainiac Model C cheap at a pawn shop year ago, so in a pinc I can clap that on a guitar and drive it with an aux send from a mixer to get pretty much the same basic effect. It doesn't ring very well when you drive it with an external signal, though, and the prototypes I've made have the same issue.  Part of that is needing to work more on making the whoe thing more resonan, but I think a big part of it is that there needs to be some kind of feedback loop between the pickups and drivers to make it keep ringing for a bit after the input signal stops or changes, and that means designing active circuitry, and that means learning more about electronics than the minimal amount I know right now.

 

I love old DOD pedals but I've never tried their reverbs.  The original FX90 analog delay is my second favorite BBD delay of all time (the first is a weird, 70s Unicord Stage delay that I've modded a bit).  It's doesn't do much, but it has a realy great, warm, crunchy-but-not-noisy sound that I cant' get enough of.  The FX96 is pretty good, too, if you swap out one of the resistors for a trimmer and use it to crak up the maximum delay time to 600 or 700ms.  DOD FX65 chorus sounds amazing, even on guitar (and I don't usually like chorus on guitar that much).  FX75B is one of my favorite flangers.  It doesn't do the classic jet noise type thing that well (I've got a Yamaha FL01 for that, also amazing and they were super cheap for a long time - mine was $35 on Reverb in 2019), but it does all kinds of subtler stuff that sounds really good, and I use it more like a chorus or a subtle phaser than a typical flanger.  Great pedal.

 

The Digitech PDS1550 Programmable Distortion I've already raved about more than once in this thread, but it's hands down my favorite distortion pedal for monosynths.  Not just the HM-2 style distortion, but using the parametric EQ like a parallel bandpass filter on the x0xb0x is VERY, VERY good, and having the hardwired dry output to easily run the clean signal in parallel with the distortion is really nice, too.  I switched off the weird slapback delay as soon as I got it but I bet that would sound great on a drum machine. Another oen I'm really glad I got before prices went crazy.  I paid $65 a couple years ago, and that's actually the most any of the peple I know who have them paid. But honestly, it's so good that the $150-ish I'm seeing right now isn't really unreasonable.  It's even OK on guitar, I guess, at least of you want the 90s black metal sound on a 90s black metal budget.

https://electricdruid.net/digitech-pds-1550-distortion-pedal-analysis/

 

The thing about DOD pedals, though, is even when I was in high school and didn't know anything, I could always hear the bypass buffer giving anything that went through it a really obvious, uniquely DOD/Digitech sound that sometimes works but sometimes doesn't, so I don't really use them for guitar very much, mainly for recording.  Some day I'll build a 5 or 6 channel true bypass loop box so I can use them and a few other pedals with weird buffers more often. For line level stuff I use them all the time, though, and so far I've never had any headroom trouble yet.

 

I wish I got a Punkifier when they were floating around for $10. EDIT: the Ounkifier was the one that has a fuzz and a ring modulator in one pedal, right?  that was one of the "Lamb series" distortions, and all of those were really cheap for a long time.  I knew one guy growing up who had a Punkifier and ended up throwing it in the trash...

Edited August 28, 2022 by TubularCorporation