Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[ignatius]

10 hours ago, usagi said:

I don't know about which twitter videos but I think much of this is real. consistent reports that they killed a lot of people in Bucha as they withdrew.

have seen a few things but some of it is totally unconfirmed stuff that came from telegram. but there's plenty of reports of looting by russian soldiers, rapes, killing civilians. i haven't gone looking for sources and confirmations as i don't really want to see any of that stuff but take for granted that its happening. 

i recall at the start of the invasion there was 'leaked' or hacked docs from russia that said putin told them to do as much damage as possible. 

also have seen some things that are reported to be ukraine soldiers shooting captured russian soldiers in the leg once they surrender and are tied up. then leaving them there some die from blood loss or shock. but these were also videos spread on telegram so i don't know what to believe.. but it was awful to watch and i looked recent with relevant uniforms and gear. 

thinking about all this... w/ukraine rallying up all kinds of people to partake in defense i can see how some less disciplined type who are more civilian than soldier might take an opportunity for revenge especially when hearing and seeing of how the russians are destroying everything and bombing civilians. there's bound to be numerous soldiers who've lost family and loved ones etc  i can't really blame them for taking revenge when they can. the feeling must be overwhelming. and the russians have shown they're not following any kind of 'rules of war' or whatever. 

i'm sure all kinds of shit is happening. it's a war and they all suck and people do terrible things, heroic things, sad things miserable things, kind things and yada yada yada... 

it's all putin's fault. 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by ignatius

[Enthusiast]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/02/i-realised-my-husband-was-dead-ukrainians-tell-of-russian-army-atrocities

 

Remember, just following orders is no excuse. The Russian army are scum.

[MaartenVC]

The retreat of the Putin's army is truly sickening.
Leaving mines and bodies behind in the streets.
Rape, executions, pillaging, starvation,...
Disgusting, shameful, spineless, inhuman.

Bucha:

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by MaartenVC

[Enthusiast]

https://archive.ph/XLVqS (UK Times paywalled article)

Children found tortured and murdered by retreating Russian cowards.

[Soloman Tump]

I just hope that the retreating soldiers down tools and say no more. 

[chenGOD]

More potential evidence of war crimes by the Russians. Obviously NSFW.

 

Spoiler

 

I know it's been discussed earlier the thread, but the amount of footage that is out there, both from news crews and ordinary citizens, that this is truly the most covered war in almost real time.

Russia continuing a heavy offensive in the southwest. Going after the seaport in Odessa I guess?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-strikes-former-tourist-hot-spot-of-odessa-ukraine

[Satans Little Helper]

Interesting explanation on the current Russian propaganda strategies.

Important takeaway is the difference between the classical alternative reality propaganda which tries to sell you a different reality. And the modern manipulation of reality propaganda which aims to confuse people and sow controversies and conflict between people. Intuitively the first is closer to what I would expect. The second is a bit more nuanced. And can cynically use the fear for classical propaganda in order to achieve its goals. As the conflict gets deeper when people think "the others"  believe in propaganda.

 

 

[Silent Member]

I guess they learned a lot from their Trump Qanon covid alternate reality games.

Edit: sorry didn't watch the video, I'll do better 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Silent Member

[may be rude]

 

"The bodies of the people whose images have been published by the Kiev regime are not stiffened after at least four days, have no typical cadaver stains, and the wounds contain unconsumed blood."

 

exactly the kind of strangely weak argument i see from internet trolls, asserted despite obviously being strangely weak, as though the purpose is to just

• lay misdirection
• drown out targetted info
• create the appearance of dispute
• spread counternarratives

surreal to see it from russian ministry of defense, disclaiming a genocidal massacre, stylized in an infographic, the day that the news breaks. "attention. those bodies look wierd. the ministry of defense"

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-europe-evacuations-665fd06b92852547d7b27627b99509a6

Associated Press journalists saw the bodies of at least 21 people in various spots around Bucha, northwest of the capital. One group of nine, all in civilian clothes, were scattered around a site that residents said Russian troops used as a base. They appeared to have been killed at close range. At least two had their hands tied behind their backs, one was shot in the head, another’s legs were bound.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by trying to be less rude

[dcom]

Butša WTF. I thought it would be impossible to feel more revulsion as I get from watching Trump, but Sergey Lavrov has now officially crossed that line. I just watched the Finnish YLE main news where Lavrov was shown claiming that the massacre is Ukraine's false flag operation committed to undermine Russias's good reputation. I'm nauseated by Lavrov's sheer gall, because he's not gone off the deep end like Putin, he knows exactly what he's doing, he's blatantly and brazenly lying in front of international press about war crimes perpetrated by invading/retreating Russian military forces. What an absolute cunt.

Tears well up in my eyes when I see the pure devastation and inhumanity Russia is to blame for. Fucking savages.

Edited April 4, 2022 by dcom

[Satans Little Helper]

Are there people from Germany who like to comment on what's happening in Germany with respect to Russian gas? I mean, politically in the broader sense.

Because it looks like a whole bunch of EU states want to ration - or rather quit - using Russian gas (as you're basically financing the war in Ukraine by paying the - might I note - rising gas prices). And the biggest country depending on Russian gas is (supposedly/allegedly) Germany.  

I do think it could make sense to maintain some kind of leverage over Russia by keeping the option to indeed cut off Russian gas entirely. And therefore, to keep some economical ties. But it is getting more painful by the day, knowing that this gas-money is being used to fund this so-called special project of Putin. (And will most likely be used for similar special projects for as long as there's no change in Russia) 

So, anyways, I'm just wondering how this discussion is developing in Germany. How's the political support for cutting off this Russian gas-pipe? Are the Germans willing to wear some extra proverbial and real sweaters?

[dcom]

41 days apart. Feb 23rd vs. in Butša. It will only strengthen the Ukrainian's resolve.

Edited April 4, 2022 by dcom

[eye]

13 hours ago, dcom said:

I'm nauseated by Lavrov's sheer gall, because he's not gone off the deep end like Putin, he knows exactly what he's doing, he's blatantly and brazenly lying in front of international press about war crimes perpetrated by invading/retreating Russian military forces. What an absolute cunt.

I'm not too sure Putin has gone off the deep end. But it is indeed sickening to see how deeply cynical the Russian regime has become (or has always been) in their total disregard for human life (including the lives of their own population and military) and for truth. 

Quote

“These are fakes that matured in the cynical imagination of Ukrainian propaganda,” Dmitry Medvedev, who served as president from 2008 to 2012 and is now deputy secretary of Russia’s Security Council, said.

“They were concocted for vast amounts of money,” Reuters quotes Medevedev saying.

Earlier Vyacheslav Volodin, the speaker of the lower house of parliament in Russia said: “The situation in Bucha is a provocation aimed at discrediting Russia. Washington and Brussels are the screenwriters and directors and Kyiv are the actors. There are no facts - just lies.”

Edited April 5, 2022 by eye

[dcom]

1 hour ago, eye said:

I'm not too sure Putin has gone off the deep end.

There are various definitions for the idiom, I'm using it in the sense of "their mind has stopped working in a normal way and their behaviour has become very strange as a result" - so what I mean is that Putin's invested himself in the war in a way that Lavrov hasn't; Lavrov is a stone-cold shrewd sycophant, but could also be way over his head in the position that he has, and can't back out or back down. Šoigu's been out of the picture for weeks, so he could've developed a conscience and been ousted.

Edited April 5, 2022 by dcom

[dcom]

Quote

Over 20 years, 900,000 emails and 4,000 files from VGTRK / ВГТРК (All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company / Всероссийская государственная телевизионная и радиовещательная компания), a Russian state-owned broadcaster which operates five national TV stations, two international networks, five radio stations, and over 80 regional TV and radio networks. The Russian government has declared VGTRK essential for the "security of the state."

VGTRK also runs the information agency Rossiya Segodnya / Росси́я сего́дня, which operates Sputnik, RIA Novosti and other entities.

According to former VGTRK employees, Kremlin officials have dictated how the news should be covered, and provided incendiary phrases meant to discredit Ukraine. According to the former employees, while the editors normally have freedom to make decisions, “where big politics are concerned, war and peace, he has no freedom.”

According to a former VGTRK cameraman, VGTRK employees took editorial directions from the Kremlin, blacklisted experts that didn't hold the party-line, and joked about whose "turn to lie" it was.

 

[Enthusiast]

4 hours ago, dcom said:

There are various definitions for the idiom, I'm using it in the sense of "their mind has stopped working in a normal way and their behaviour has become very strange as a result" - so what I mean is that Putin's invested himself in the war in a way that Lavrov hasn't; Lavrov is a stone-cold shrewd sycophant, but could also be way over his head in the position that he has, and can't back out or back down. Šoigu's been out of the picture for weeks, so he could've developed a conscience and been ousted.

I would not buy into the idea that any senior person involved in that administration is in over their head or would have a crisis of conscience. They have all been working toward this point for years. The entire state from top to bottom is a criminal enterprise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_under_Vladimir_Putin#FSB_influence

[ignatius]

don't forget that russia invaded with mobile crematoriums and like 45,000 body bags and they expected to have little resistance. they weren't planning anything nice. 

 

[J3FF3R00]

1 hour ago, ignatius said:

don't forget that russia invaded with mobile crematoriums…

I looked into this claim after my conservative brother mentioned it in conversation (after I questioned him as to where he heard it and he said cnn, but that wasn’t true) and it was a claim mostly reported by right-leaning sources that had initially disseminated Russian-propaganda-adjacent claims. 
Snopes says it’s unconfirmed.

When I was wondering why something like that would be made up, my wife suggested maybe it could have been a line used to instill fear in Ukrainian civilians, but who knows. 
Do you know if it’s since been confirmed or not? Just curious… and trying to be thorough, as this was a thing that stood out for me. 

[ignatius]

8 minutes ago, J3FF3R00 said:

I looked into this claim after my conservative brother mentioned it in conversation (after I questioned him as to where he heard it and he said cnn, but that wasn’t true) and it was a claim mostly reported by right-leaning sources that had initially disseminated Russian-propaganda-adjacent claims. 
Snopes says it’s unconfirmed.

When I was wondering why something like that would be made up, my wife suggested maybe it could have been a line used to instill fear in Ukrainian civilians, but who knows. 
Do you know if it’s since been confirmed or not? Just curious… and trying to be thorough, as this was a thing that stood out for me. 

true. good point. it was early on in the invasion. there were some pics posted and a few articles. i forget where i saw it first it was so long ago. 

a quick google reveals it's mostly different articles getting the info from the same source. but also saying it's something that russia has done before in previous conflicts. also implies that they were for russian soldiers and used to hide losses of the russian army. so, they could not send home corpses of russian soldiers but get rid of them on the battlefield to hide the deaths from media etc. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/23/russia-deploys-mobile-crematorium-follow-troops-battle/

since then i've not heard more about it. i wonder if any were captured by ukraine forces?

Edited April 5, 2022 by ignatius

[dcom]

 

[beerwolf]

the reports I'm reading, seem to confirm that Russia is plumbing new depths of depravity 

what world and what century do they think they are fucking living in?

Edited April 5, 2022 by beerwolf

[dcom]

4 minutes ago, beerwolf said:

Russia is plumbing new depths of depravity 

Remember MH17?

[ignatius]

3 minutes ago, beerwolf said:

the reports I'm reading, seem to confirm that Russia is plumbing new depths of depravity 

what fucking world and what century do they think they are living in?

they did some awful shit in afghanistan too. running over people w/tanks after putting them feet first under the tank tracks. it's their SOP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War#War_crimes

[jaderpansen]

21 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

Are there people from Germany who like to comment on what's happening in Germany with respect to Russian gas? I mean, politically in the broader sense.

Because it looks like a whole bunch of EU states want to ration - or rather quit - using Russian gas (as you're basically financing the war in Ukraine by paying the - might I note - rising gas prices). And the biggest country depending on Russian gas is (supposedly/allegedly) Germany.  

I do think it could make sense to maintain some kind of leverage over Russia by keeping the option to indeed cut off Russian gas entirely. And therefore, to keep some economical ties. But it is getting more painful by the day, knowing that this gas-money is being used to fund this so-called special project of Putin. (And will most likely be used for similar special projects for as long as there's no change in Russia) 

So, anyways, I'm just wondering how this discussion is developing in Germany. How's the political support for cutting off this Russian gas-pipe? Are the Germans willing to wear some extra proverbial and real sweaters?

Well, it's the talk of the town most certainly.

Economic experts discuss the matter all across mainstream media, as usual to varying conclusions. Supply chains have become so complex hardly anyone can really fathom what's at stake, in any case this isn't just about heating but impacts on whole industries like pharma and chemical as well. Russian share in gas imports is estimated to be 40-50%. Nay-sayers emphasize GDP recession estimates up to 6%, while others deem the impact as manageable and security-political priority.

Current minister of economic affairs, Robert Habeck, already sought out deals with Katar as alternative, naturally a lesser of two evils at best. Kinda ironic and heartbreaking, since he's from the green party, one of the few that pleaded for more independency by turning towards renewable sources since pretty much forever. Politically these are very exciting times with or without the war, as Germany's got it first three-party coaliton EVER to finally replace the era Merkel last december, consisting of said Greens, the SPD (biggest share of seats in Bundestag, think +-Labour) and the FDP (so called liberals, but mostly in an economic sense, quite different to what's associated with the term in the US), the latter traditionally leaning more towards the right-wing, the former two being slightly to decidedly leftist. A strange melange indeed, with powers being quite evenly distributed in terms of ministries, so who knows what's gonna happen eventually... At least during election campaigning carbon neutrality was one consesus among all 3, so in theory gas heating would have went out of vogue regardless... but naturally this can't happen over night, especially considering how much the matter was slept on over the last 16 years. What's becoming clearer every day is just how much Merkel actually fucked up, holding the country in a kind of prolonged-20th-century-cryo-stasis, leaving several fields unattended for 4 whole mandates despite lip-service galore ((digital) infrastructure, energy transition, public health, social inequality, pay-gaps west/ former GDR, misuse of power within her own party... to name some major ones). This started to become more apparent to the mainstream with Corona measures and like i said the trend still holds.

Blah. OK, veering off. Bottom line: Officially, an Embargo is not considered at this moment by the government / chancellor Scholz, but they are quite actively looking for alternatives to become independant (enough) until end of the year...

As for public opinion: Well, your guess is as good as mine, bubbles n all that. In popular media like Spiegel the matter's mostly discussed as dilemma, with extremes battling it out on twitter as usual. Quite a heated one, particularly since the Буча massacre reports.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by jaderpansen

[Satans Little Helper]

Thanks man! It's both incredibly interesting and painful how difficult these issues can be. I'm afraid to admit to an extent its fascinating to see it all playing out. Despite the horrors taking place in Ukraine.

Or to put it in an even more politically incoorect manner: it's like listening to Michael Jackson tunes.

(sorry)