Herr Jan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Curiouser and curiouser http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/01/10/new-twist-charlie-hebdo-lead-investigator-turns-up-dead-suicided/ Oh, here we go again. Another tinfoilhat conclusion posted only by the most paranoid websites. I'd say tread carefully with sites like these. The suicide could very well be true, but when the first sentence contains 'false flag' you know you are dealing with confirmation bias. so it's happened but none of the main news channels are reporting it? a bit suspicious don't you think? surely it's of some importance? One main trustworthy (afaik) French news outlet has posted the news with an explanation from his department for why he killed himself. Although you could (and should) definitely question motives, the fact that these websites immediately dismiss it as an odd reason because "who would want to miss the biggest single terror event in the century, or history in the making, as it were" and make it all 'suspicious', 'mysterious' and 'false flag' without ANY further proof is just utterly cringeworthy and like I said, reeks of confirmation bias. Basically, no, I don't think this is suspicious, the guy had a terrible job and responsibility on his hands. Who knows what his history was beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perunamuusi Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 twitter kid calls out bunch of cunts marching in paris http://mic.com/articles/108166/one-student-s-epic-tweets-call-out-the-biggest-hypocrites-marching-for-free-speech-in-paris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvatorin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 haha from '78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian trageskin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 the "republican march" was an epic demonstration of schizophrenic politics regarding freedom of speech since the french government has been for quite some time in a war against all kinds of criticism towards jewish victimisation, zionism and israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triachus Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 the "republican march" was an epic demonstration of schizophrenic politics regarding freedom of speech since the french government has been for quite some time in a war against all kinds of criticism towards jewish victimisation, zionism and israel. said the nazi apologist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Atom Dowry Firth Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Against my better judgement I just read some of the comments on a BBC article about David Cameron reviewing security for the UK and I'm now seriously considering just jumping off a bridge. Fucking cretins I fully support the Gov in the implementation of security measures. I will go further. The army must be deployed, borders closed. spot -check and identification papers produced, translators and moderators placed in all places of worship all so as not to be racist. media to be investigated and terrorist sympathisers removed. immediate deportation of all terror suspects and family to start with. We need a lurch to the right to undo 30 years of mess by the liberal facists. only people to blame for this mess are politicians throughout the EU - especially Germany. The obsession for no borders and rampant immigration were imposed on all of us without public consent and a child could have told them it would create tensions. People do get on because most are good but overcrowding inevitably creates stress and fear and that gives radicals easy converts. Can you imagine the scenario if Turkey is allowed to join the EU?100 million islamists allowed to pour into the West but bringing what benefits for Western society? We are contantly told that the vast majority of Muslims in Britain do not support the Muslim terror campaign.Is there any evidence for this assumption? The West by and large has become weak. It shows in our inability to deal with the animals that are wreaking murder and mayhem in our cities. We are shackled by political correctness, scared of appearing racist and the arcaic belief that good will conquer evil. It won't. The only thing that will beat these lunatics is to be twice as brutal as they are. That's the only language they understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perunamuusi Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Everything is going exactly to plan unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Visitor Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 hey reporters need coffee too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drome Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Everything is going exactly to plan unfortunately Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadameChaos Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 divide and conquer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autopilot Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Lucifeeeerrrrr!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 hey reporters need coffee too it is the plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublename Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Coffee is Arab devilry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not really directly related but I didn't know where else to put it. Apparently building snowmen is anti islamic. http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/01/12/saudi-cleric-condemns-snowmen-as-anti-islamic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Post-colonialism seemed to have found a way of supporting large muslims populations peacefully in Europe for many decades, but, with Bush/puppet Blair kicking the fuck out of the hornets nest, all hell has broken lose. I'm not defending any actions here, but, coming from an Irish family living in Britain, i can fully empathize w/the freedom-fighter/terrorist viewpoint schism. Would these people feel the need to create desperate acts of violence if they felt their own homelands werent under seige? A sad situation indeed considering France's correct unwillingness in following Bush/puppet Blair into Iraq initially in 2003 (and thats w/out going on abaaht Algeria). At the same time, the kids from Cardiff who posted up IS videos of themselves chilling w/their Kalashnikovs in the sun, attended a mosque just behind my work office. SInce then the EDL have been there stirring it up as have other right-wing fringe nutters. What the moderate mosque attendees must think of all this is beyond. Besides, its only a matter of time before troops will be back in-country in Iraq/Syria & then we could all find ourselves facing far more direct & lethal threats at home. Hate the despair, not the religion. Just like how serial killers prob wouldnt find the need to massacre large amounts of innocent people if they were just given more love & attention as kids right? wrong, you're confusing untreated mental illness with quasi-fascist violence promoted through religious divisions and absolute nowhere did i indicate that. next,,,,,, I was indicating ironically that your self-described empathy toward the "freedom fighter/terrorist viewpoint schism" is comparable to empathizing with the "unloved-as-a-child/serial killer viewpoint schism". "Would these people feel the need to create desperate acts of violence if their homeland wasnt under siege?" 1. Lol ya, under siege by their fellow radicals/dictators 2. If i broke into my neighbors home and killed his family while they were sleeping, would the response "well ya know the country I traveled from is in disarray and since you live in the country that from my perspective was associated with causing that disarray" be appropriate? 3. In other words, adults are responsible for their actions. People need to stop blaming murderous hateful acts against innocents on the perpetrators conditions. So fucking what? Youre countries under seige, doesnt allow you to behead my daughter. I love watmm but the amount of well-buts / its terrible what happened but ya knooowww b.s. on here is unreal. You appear to require a lesson in Geo-politics: 1) Radical dictators only exist(ed) in the Middle East through the support of western & ex-Soviet governments, chief among these is the US administration since the decline of the British empire. See Rumsfeld meeting Sadam, Blair re-establishing links with Gaddafi AND THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF PETRO-CHEMICAL MARKETS SINCE 1900-ish. You need their oil to drive your 2miles to the gallon suv's, they need your $$$ and your intelligence services in supporting their elites/safeguarding oil supplies. Simples. Only now, w/fracking, has the west's oil addiction started to subside slightly = oil @ $50/barrel. 2) When the US & UK removed the likes of Gaddafi AND Sadam, they failed to create working democratic institutions to replace them with, hence creating the ultimate power vacuum cluster-fuck that has left us ALL at far more risk than we would otherwise have been. From cocaine networks in W-Africa, to Libya & onwards to Syria & Iraq,,,,, these hell-holes only exist because of the perversely short-sighted "policies" of the Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations & their allies, ie: the UK, France, Israel etc. Your point about irony is, ironically, very ironic, as if you've paid taxes to these administrations you have yourself contributed to the problem. 3) Finally, In post-colonial France, where there is a huge Algerian population, the removal of Gaddafi in Libya & further involvement bombing targets in the Levant has focused Islamic extremists on France's role in the region. Remember, this is a nation with an appalling colonial legacy in Algeria (sorry to say it, but its true), where large numbers of people effectively live as 2nd class citizens. But France is also a nation that said a very definite "NON" to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and lead to ongoing ridicule of France in the US for not supporting this policy. French fries became freedom-fries and the whole "fuck the French" attitude kicked in. Not so "fuck the French" now, is it. Soooo in summary, i havent in any way shape or form condoned murder, but having lived through an extensive bombing campaign during "The Troubles" & having been brought up by an Irish catholic (semi-republican) family in mainland Britain, i've been afforded the perspective that there are many shades of grey (50 in all apparently) when it comes to terrorism & politics and if you see everything in very specific black/white terms/opposites you miss the human struggle that exists at the very core of these problems. Eg: if an 18 yr old Sunni-Muslim from the UK has traveled to Turkey/Syria after being radicalized online & realizes what a severe and almighty mistake he's made - what then? Send him to prison forever a la Guantanamo? Or engage with him in de-radicalization? The west created this problem & it is the west that will answer for it. Our decades of interference in Middle-Eastern affairs is the ONLY reason why anyone with an Islamic agenda might wanna kill your neighbours and if your neighbours are as ignorant of this fact as you are then god help them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not really directly related but I didn't know where else to put it. Apparently building snowmen is anti islamic. http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/01/12/saudi-cleric-condemns-snowmen-as-anti-islamic LOL Sheikh Munajjid had some supporters, however. "It (building snowmen) is imitating the infidels, it promotes lustiness and eroticism," one wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Visitor Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I was indicating ironically that your self-described empathy toward the "freedom fighter/terrorist viewpoint schism" is comparable to empathizing with the "unloved-as-a-child/serial killer viewpoint schism". "Would these people feel the need to create desperate acts of violence if their homeland wasnt under siege?" 1. Lol ya, under siege by their fellow radicals/dictators 2. If i broke into my neighbors home and killed his family while they were sleeping, would the response "well ya know the country I traveled from is in disarray and since you live in the country that from my perspective was associated with causing that disarray" be appropriate? 3. In other words, adults are responsible for their actions. People need to stop blaming murderous hateful acts against innocents on the perpetrators conditions. So fucking what? Youre countries under seige, doesnt allow you to behead my daughter. I love watmm but the amount of well-buts / its terrible what happened but ya knooowww b.s. on here is unreal. You appear to require a lesson in Geo-politics: 1) Radical dictators only exist(ed) in the Middle East through the support of western & ex-Soviet governments, chief among these is the US administration since the decline of the British empire. See Rumsfeld meeting Sadam, Blair re-establishing links with Gaddafi AND THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF PETRO-CHEMICAL MARKETS SINCE 1900-ish. You need their oil to drive your 2miles to the gallon suv's, they need your $$$ and your intelligence services in supporting their elites/safeguarding oil supplies. Simples. Only now, w/fracking, has the west's oil addiction started to subside slightly = oil @ $50/barrel. 2) When the US & UK removed the likes of Gaddafi AND Sadam, they failed to create working democratic institutions to replace them with, hence creating the ultimate power vacuum cluster-fuck that has left us ALL at far more risk than we would otherwise have been. From cocaine networks in W-Africa, to Libya & onwards to Syria & Iraq,,,,, these hell-holes only exist because of the perversely short-sighted "policies" of the Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations & their allies, ie: the UK, France, Israel etc. Your point about irony is, ironically, very ironic, as if you've paid taxes to these administrations you have yourself contributed to the problem. 3) Finally, In post-colonial France, where there is a huge Algerian population, the removal of Gaddafi in Libya & further involvement bombing targets in the Levant has focused Islamic extremists on France's role in the region. Remember, this is a nation with an appalling colonial legacy in Algeria (sorry to say it, but its true), where large numbers of people effectively live as 2nd class citizens. But France is also a nation that said a very definite "NON" to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and lead to ongoing ridicule of France in the US for not supporting this policy. French fries became freedom-fries and the whole "fuck the French" attitude kicked in. Not so "fuck the French" now, is it. Soooo in summary, i havent in any way shape or form condoned murder, but having lived through an extensive bombing campaign during "The Troubles" & having been brought up by an Irish catholic (semi-republican) family in mainland Britain, i've been afforded the perspective that there are many shades of grey (50 in all apparently) when it comes to terrorism & politics and if you see everything in very specific black/white terms/opposites you miss the human struggle that exists at the very core of these problems. Eg: if an 18 yr old Sunni-Muslim from the UK has traveled to Turkey/Syria after being radicalized online & realizes what a severe and almighty mistake he's made - what then? Send him to prison forever a la Guantanamo? Or engage with him in de-radicalization? The west created this problem & it is the west that will answer for it. Our decades of interference in Middle-Eastern affairs is the ONLY reason why anyone with an Islamic agenda might wanna kill your neighbours and if your neighbours are as ignorant of this fact as you are then god help them too. Sure, I'm never one to turn down information from anyone who has knowledge, so I appreciate that breakdown and respect what seems like a pretty decent comprehension of the unfolding of events in the region. I am familiar with many aspects of that history, but I'm not a history buff or geopolitical scholar, though I do take an interest and have a poly sci / mass comm degree. Regardless, that's all fine and I'm not disagreeing with how things played out as you explained them. I just think those aspects are irrelevant when it comes to acts of terror on innocent lives. No "background information" is going to change that for me. Purposely targeting (and non-defensively) killing innocent people is black and white for me period, as nothing will ever justify (or as you might rather me put it- "empathize with perspectives of mindsets", or shed light upon reasoning etc etc) that. An escapee from an Aushwitz concentration camp going out of their way to murder a random German civilian farmer in the next village (who poses no threat) over out of sheer revenge due to adrenaline, anger, starvation, exhaustion, and battered spirit would get no sympathy from me in terms of justification/reasoning behind that act of murder. I also wouldn't try and "study" the effects of persecution and the roots of revenge killing as a way to normalize or pass off that act of murder as a problem of environment/institution/sociology. I would make a judgement, and say flat out that that hypothetical person is .. wait for it.. WRONG and acted out of evil. No shades of grey there for me. Anyway, just wanted to illustrate it from a different perspective, as it sometimes seems like a good amount of ppl on here don't like to talk about black and white, good and evil, shades of grey, morality as it relates to Islamic terrorism or extremism- for some reason, we have to understand more, more and more, and each time innocents are killed by them, we have to feel sadness rather than anger and analyze ourselves and geopolitics and democracy and sanctions and oil and everything- everything except the act itself. This line of thought is as if humans have zero free will, as we are simply all zombies playing out actions. Cold blooded murder? The system. Plane hijacked? U.S. government's military campaign. Charlie Hebdo attack? "Sure it was terrible and a horrific act of violence but we have to also look at the west's misunderstanding of Islam/French colonies/poor immigrant conditions etc etc etc..." And on and on... With that line of thought, shit, I could partially or even fully blame all the wrong things I've ever done to people or myself on everything from city council meetings to Chinese cyberhackers to even slavery (since ya know my girlfriend does in fact have 1/10 African American in her background). Yes, abstract notions of blame, but hey theyre there. Where do you draw the line of directly associated with abstractly associated? Is there an actual line? If so, I'd like you to point it out to explain your case. Where does accountability start and end? The reason why that can't be answered with confidence is the reason I'm quick to judge an act of coldblooded non-defensive murder on random innocent lives that happens in terrorist as inexcusable. There may be fibers of motive and connections behind the event of the Charlie Hebdo attack that were abstract indirect catalysts in the grand scheme of things, but the clear and apparent motive (Islamic radicalism in and of itself) is what led to this. They believed that the defaming the prophet called for the extreme act of taking out innocent lives to protect the image of their version of religion. That's it. It has nothing to do with oil, U.S. invasion, French colonies in Algeria. Look around the world and you will even find examples of how militants and terrorists convert by sword, enslaving and raping mass amounts of people from Africa to the Middle East- I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing any other way than to blame those atrocities on anything other than the radical aspects of their religion. Does Boko Haram "feel oppressed to the point" where they had to go and steal little schoolgirls and throw them into a slave trade? Cmon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azatoth Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Paragraphs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublename Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 ¶ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerWaschbar Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I was indicating ironically that your self-described empathy toward the "freedom fighter/terrorist viewpoint schism" is comparable to empathizing with the "unloved-as-a-child/serial killer viewpoint schism". "Would these people feel the need to create desperate acts of violence if their homeland wasnt under siege?" 1. Lol ya, under siege by their fellow radicals/dictators 2. If i broke into my neighbors home and killed his family while they were sleeping, would the response "well ya know the country I traveled from is in disarray and since you live in the country that from my perspective was associated with causing that disarray" be appropriate? 3. In other words, adults are responsible for their actions. People need to stop blaming murderous hateful acts against innocents on the perpetrators conditions. So fucking what? Youre countries under seige, doesnt allow you to behead my daughter. I love watmm but the amount of well-buts / its terrible what happened but ya knooowww b.s. on here is unreal. You appear to require a lesson in Geo-politics: 1) Radical dictators only exist(ed) in the Middle East through the support of western & ex-Soviet governments, chief among these is the US administration since the decline of the British empire. See Rumsfeld meeting Sadam, Blair re-establishing links with Gaddafi AND THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF PETRO-CHEMICAL MARKETS SINCE 1900-ish. You need their oil to drive your 2miles to the gallon suv's, they need your $$$ and your intelligence services in supporting their elites/safeguarding oil supplies. Simples. Only now, w/fracking, has the west's oil addiction started to subside slightly = oil @ $50/barrel. 2) When the US & UK removed the likes of Gaddafi AND Sadam, they failed to create working democratic institutions to replace them with, hence creating the ultimate power vacuum cluster-fuck that has left us ALL at far more risk than we would otherwise have been. From cocaine networks in W-Africa, to Libya & onwards to Syria & Iraq,,,,, these hell-holes only exist because of the perversely short-sighted "policies" of the Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations & their allies, ie: the UK, France, Israel etc. Your point about irony is, ironically, very ironic, as if you've paid taxes to these administrations you have yourself contributed to the problem. 3) Finally, In post-colonial France, where there is a huge Algerian population, the removal of Gaddafi in Libya & further involvement bombing targets in the Levant has focused Islamic extremists on France's role in the region. Remember, this is a nation with an appalling colonial legacy in Algeria (sorry to say it, but its true), where large numbers of people effectively live as 2nd class citizens. But France is also a nation that said a very definite "NON" to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and lead to ongoing ridicule of France in the US for not supporting this policy. French fries became freedom-fries and the whole "fuck the French" attitude kicked in. Not so "fuck the French" now, is it. Soooo in summary, i havent in any way shape or form condoned murder, but having lived through an extensive bombing campaign during "The Troubles" & having been brought up by an Irish catholic (semi-republican) family in mainland Britain, i've been afforded the perspective that there are many shades of grey (50 in all apparently) when it comes to terrorism & politics and if you see everything in very specific black/white terms/opposites you miss the human struggle that exists at the very core of these problems. Eg: if an 18 yr old Sunni-Muslim from the UK has traveled to Turkey/Syria after being radicalized online & realizes what a severe and almighty mistake he's made - what then? Send him to prison forever a la Guantanamo? Or engage with him in de-radicalization? The west created this problem & it is the west that will answer for it. Our decades of interference in Middle-Eastern affairs is the ONLY reason why anyone with an Islamic agenda might wanna kill your neighbours and if your neighbours are as ignorant of this fact as you are then god help them too. Sure, I'm never one to turn down information from anyone who has knowledge, so I appreciate that breakdown and respect what seems like a pretty decent comprehension of the unfolding of events in the region. I am familiar with many aspects of that history, but I'm not a history buff or geopolitical scholar, though I do take an interest and have a poly sci / mass comm degree. Regardless, that's all fine and I'm not disagreeing with how things played out as you explained them. I just think those aspects are irrelevant when it comes to acts of terror on innocent lives. No "background information" is going to change that for me. Purposely targeting (and non-defensively) killing innocent people is black and white for me period, as nothing will ever justify (or as you might rather me put it- "empathize with perspectives of mindsets", or shed light upon reasoning etc etc) that. An escapee from an Aushwitz concentration camp going out of their way to murder a random German civilian farmer in the next village (who poses no threat) over out of sheer revenge due to adrenaline, anger, starvation, exhaustion, and battered spirit would get no sympathy from me in terms of justification/reasoning behind that act of murder. I also wouldn't try and "study" the effects of persecution and the roots of revenge killing as a way to normalize or pass off that act of murder as a problem of environment/institution/sociology. I would make a judgement, and say flat out that that hypothetical person is .. wait for it.. WRONG and acted out of evil. No shades of grey there for me. Anyway, just wanted to illustrate it from a different perspective, as it sometimes seems like a good amount of ppl on here don't like to talk about black and white, good and evil, shades of grey, morality as it relates to Islamic terrorism or extremism- for some reason, we have to understand more, more and more, and each time innocents are killed by them, we have to feel sadness rather than anger and analyze ourselves and geopolitics and democracy and sanctions and oil and everything- everything except the act itself. This line of thought is as if humans have zero free will, as we are simply all zombies playing out actions. Cold blooded murder? The system. Plane hijacked? U.S. government's military campaign. Charlie Hebdo attack? "Sure it was terrible and a horrific act of violence but we have to also look at the west's misunderstanding of Islam/French colonies/poor immigrant conditions etc etc etc..." And on and on... With that line of thought, shit, I could partially or even fully blame all the wrong things I've ever done to people or myself on everything from city council meetings to Chinese cyberhackers to even slavery (since ya know my girlfriend does in fact have 1/10 African American in her background). Yes, abstract notions of blame, but hey theyre there. Where do you draw the line of directly associated with abstractly associated? Is there an actual line? If so, I'd like you to point it out to explain your case. Where does accountability start and end? The reason why that can't be answered with confidence is the reason I'm quick to judge an act of coldblooded non-defensive murder on random innocent lives that happens in terrorist as inexcusable. There may be fibers of motive and connections behind the event of the Charlie Hebdo attack that were abstract indirect catalysts in the grand scheme of things, but the clear and apparent motive (Islamic radicalism in and of itself) is what led to this. They believed that the defaming the prophet called for the extreme act of taking out innocent lives to protect the image of their version of religion. That's it. It has nothing to do with oil, U.S. invasion, French colonies in Algeria. Look around the world and you will even find examples of how militants and terrorists convert by sword, enslaving and raping mass amounts of people from Africa to the Middle East- I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing any other way than to blame those atrocities on anything other than the radical aspects of their religion. Does Boko Haram "feel oppressed to the point" where they had to go and steal little schoolgirls and throw them into a slave trade? Cmon. you could literally write 1,000 pages of similar nonsense and it still wouldn't change the fact that the US military has murdered far more innocent civilians than Al Qaeda or any other 'terrorist' group has combined. but those damn muslims man, we need to focus on them. (all those people America killed were in self defense by the way). According to the sound logic you've vomited on this forum repeatedly Islamic extremism justifies our current US foreign policy trajectory, which results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately. It's cool though, you still make good vaporwave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I was indicating ironically that your self-described empathy toward the "freedom fighter/terrorist viewpoint schism" is comparable to empathizing with the "unloved-as-a-child/serial killer viewpoint schism". "Would these people feel the need to create desperate acts of violence if their homeland wasnt under siege?" 1. Lol ya, under siege by their fellow radicals/dictators 2. If i broke into my neighbors home and killed his family while they were sleeping, would the response "well ya know the country I traveled from is in disarray and since you live in the country that from my perspective was associated with causing that disarray" be appropriate? 3. In other words, adults are responsible for their actions. People need to stop blaming murderous hateful acts against innocents on the perpetrators conditions. So fucking what? Youre countries under seige, doesnt allow you to behead my daughter. I love watmm but the amount of well-buts / its terrible what happened but ya knooowww b.s. on here is unreal. You appear to require a lesson in Geo-politics: 1) Radical dictators only exist(ed) in the Middle East through the support of western & ex-Soviet governments, chief among these is the US administration since the decline of the British empire. See Rumsfeld meeting Sadam, Blair re-establishing links with Gaddafi AND THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF PETRO-CHEMICAL MARKETS SINCE 1900-ish. You need their oil to drive your 2miles to the gallon suv's, they need your $$$ and your intelligence services in supporting their elites/safeguarding oil supplies. Simples. Only now, w/fracking, has the west's oil addiction started to subside slightly = oil @ $50/barrel. 2) When the US & UK removed the likes of Gaddafi AND Sadam, they failed to create working democratic institutions to replace them with, hence creating the ultimate power vacuum cluster-fuck that has left us ALL at far more risk than we would otherwise have been. From cocaine networks in W-Africa, to Libya & onwards to Syria & Iraq,,,,, these hell-holes only exist because of the perversely short-sighted "policies" of the Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations & their allies, ie: the UK, France, Israel etc. Your point about irony is, ironically, very ironic, as if you've paid taxes to these administrations you have yourself contributed to the problem. 3) Finally, In post-colonial France, where there is a huge Algerian population, the removal of Gaddafi in Libya & further involvement bombing targets in the Levant has focused Islamic extremists on France's role in the region. Remember, this is a nation with an appalling colonial legacy in Algeria (sorry to say it, but its true), where large numbers of people effectively live as 2nd class citizens. But France is also a nation that said a very definite "NON" to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and lead to ongoing ridicule of France in the US for not supporting this policy. French fries became freedom-fries and the whole "fuck the French" attitude kicked in. Not so "fuck the French" now, is it. Soooo in summary, i havent in any way shape or form condoned murder, but having lived through an extensive bombing campaign during "The Troubles" & having been brought up by an Irish catholic (semi-republican) family in mainland Britain, i've been afforded the perspective that there are many shades of grey (50 in all apparently) when it comes to terrorism & politics and if you see everything in very specific black/white terms/opposites you miss the human struggle that exists at the very core of these problems. Eg: if an 18 yr old Sunni-Muslim from the UK has traveled to Turkey/Syria after being radicalized online & realizes what a severe and almighty mistake he's made - what then? Send him to prison forever a la Guantanamo? Or engage with him in de-radicalization? The west created this problem & it is the west that will answer for it. Our decades of interference in Middle-Eastern affairs is the ONLY reason why anyone with an Islamic agenda might wanna kill your neighbours and if your neighbours are as ignorant of this fact as you are then god help them too. Sure, I'm never one to turn down information from anyone who has knowledge, so I appreciate that breakdown and respect what seems like a pretty decent comprehension of the unfolding of events in the region. I am familiar with many aspects of that history, but I'm not a history buff or geopolitical scholar, though I do take an interest and have a poly sci / mass comm degree. Regardless, that's all fine and I'm not disagreeing with how things played out as you explained them. I just think those aspects are irrelevant when it comes to acts of terror on innocent lives. No "background information" is going to change that for me. Purposely targeting (and non-defensively) killing innocent people is black and white for me period, as nothing will ever justify (or as you might rather me put it- "empathize with perspectives of mindsets", or shed light upon reasoning etc etc) that. An escapee from an Aushwitz concentration camp going out of their way to murder a random German civilian farmer in the next village (who poses no threat) over out of sheer revenge due to adrenaline, anger, starvation, exhaustion, and battered spirit would get no sympathy from me in terms of justification/reasoning behind that act of murder. I also wouldn't try and "study" the effects of persecution and the roots of revenge killing as a way to normalize or pass off that act of murder as a problem of environment/institution/sociology. I would make a judgement, and say flat out that that hypothetical person is .. wait for it.. WRONG and acted out of evil. No shades of grey there for me. Anyway, just wanted to illustrate it from a different perspective, as it sometimes seems like a good amount of ppl on here don't like to talk about black and white, good and evil, shades of grey, morality as it relates to Islamic terrorism or extremism- for some reason, we have to understand more, more and more, and each time innocents are killed by them, we have to feel sadness rather than anger and analyze ourselves and geopolitics and democracy and sanctions and oil and everything- everything except the act itself. This line of thought is as if humans have zero free will, as we are simply all zombies playing out actions. Cold blooded murder? The system. Plane hijacked? U.S. government's military campaign. Charlie Hebdo attack? "Sure it was terrible and a horrific act of violence but we have to also look at the west's misunderstanding of Islam/French colonies/poor immigrant conditions etc etc etc..." And on and on... With that line of thought, shit, I could partially or even fully blame all the wrong things I've ever done to people or myself on everything from city council meetings to Chinese cyberhackers to even slavery (since ya know my girlfriend does in fact have 1/10 African American in her background). Yes, abstract notions of blame, but hey theyre there. Where do you draw the line of directly associated with abstractly associated? Is there an actual line? If so, I'd like you to point it out to explain your case. Where does accountability start and end? The reason why that can't be answered with confidence is the reason I'm quick to judge an act of coldblooded non-defensive murder on random innocent lives that happens in terrorist as inexcusable. There may be fibers of motive and connections behind the event of the Charlie Hebdo attack that were abstract indirect catalysts in the grand scheme of things, but the clear and apparent motive (Islamic radicalism in and of itself) is what led to this. They believed that the defaming the prophet called for the extreme act of taking out innocent lives to protect the image of their version of religion. That's it. It has nothing to do with oil, U.S. invasion, French colonies in Algeria. Look around the world and you will even find examples of how militants and terrorists convert by sword, enslaving and raping mass amounts of people from Africa to the Middle East- I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing any other way than to blame those atrocities on anything other than the radical aspects of their religion. Does Boko Haram "feel oppressed to the point" where they had to go and steal little schoolgirls and throw them into a slave trade? Cmon. Again, you're seeing "things" from a post-enlightenment, pro-individual, post-christian perspective. There are people & places where that sense of perspective doesnt exist. They see humanity as "dividuals" and AGAIN, if you can not separate the causes of the acts from the acts themselves you understand very little about life beyond your own nation's borders. America has murdered, yes MURDERED, 1000's & 1000's of Islamic civilians in recent years, but thats just a footnote in history, n'est pas? Killing in the name of what then? The "FIYAH OF FREEDOM" (Bush 200?)? Democracy? Western values? Here's another example for you - would i condone any Irish repblican killings, even though i fully grasp the extent of the human-rights struggle waged across that island? No. BUT (caveat) - i fully understand issues of internment w/out trial, stop n search, collusion between MI5 (British domestic intelligence service) and Unionist (protestant) paramilitaries (murderers), lack of access to education & discrimination in employment. Now subvert that position even further - with infinitely more death & murder, infinitely more interference from foreign powers, infinitely more despair and loss of hope.......... imagine your country occupied by a foreign power (seen Red Dawn?).........wouldnt you act? What if you were Palestinian, living in Gaza after the Israelis showed up (yet again) and murdered your relatives n friends? You may not turn to murder,,,,,,and i respect your morality highly (honestly), but you would DEFINITELY be politicized and until you WERE in such a situation you have no context for empathy either. And it shows. I'm not condoning murder and i'm no bleeding heart liberal, but i understand the causes of these actions. They are numerous & complex, but w/out decades & decades of western interference in Middle Eastern affairs none of these people would have any cause to act as they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Visitor Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 the US military has murdered far more innocent civilians than Al Qaeda or any other 'terrorist' group has combined. but those damn muslims man, we need to focus on them. (all those people America killed were in self defense by the way). According to the sound logic you've vomited on this forum repeatedly Islamic extremism justifies our current US foreign policy trajectory, which results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately. It's cool though, you still make good vaporwave right, cuz intent & targets just straight up don't matter lol ... According to the sound logic you've vomited on this forum, when the west/democratic leaderships kill people, it's out of evil conspiratorial intent... when radicals or terrorists kill people, oh there's a reason.. it's.. drum roll... Western Democracies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.