Coronavirus COVID-19

[custom knob]

What are the ways this could go very wrong  - and what do you propose should be done differently?

[Satans Little Helper]

3 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

Again, misunderstood my point. The point I was attempting to make was that you CANNOT get sufficient longterm data from the human phase of the clinical trials ALONE, thats why we use animals with similar genetics and shorter lifespans as models from which to extrapolate longterm data.  Bret’s point was that those animal trials are inherently flawed because of the way the animals are bred. Fuck man, you all are determined to disagree with everything I say, even if you’d otherwise agree with it.

You CANNOT get sufficient longterm data from non-human data like mice or whatever. Even bred with the special Bret formula. (pun intended :p) 

Reason is: you need A LOT of data from A BIG population collected OUTSIDE the lab over LONG amount of time. You need phase iv studies by NECESSITY. You CANNOT breed some special animals to compensate this. 

Ok, I'll stop with the caps now. Hopefully, it annoyed the F out of you. (If you want to keep it civil, just stay away from the caps please)

Although there might be very specific situations where these improved lab-rats might help, those are very specific and far from comprehensive. You just need to study the effects on people in the real world, outside of a specific research protocol. And in terms of science, this "real-world evidence" is on of the most difficult to do properly and get good or even conclusive results. Consider it a fact of life.

Bret is also well aware of this, btw. But this discussion is actually not about what Bret knows or doesn't know. It's about people looking for information on the internet which align with their intuitions. Why do I say this? Well, because you've already admitted you're not well versed in all the specifics and therefore - imo - has no personal opinion other than to believe what a couple of specific sources say. In other words, you're copy pasting other peoples arguments. (and in the process run the risk of making bad copies of what was originally said or intended)

Also note that you currently following Brets comments with respect to his personal research activities. What are the odds that Bret is a little bit biased about his own results? I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm saying he might be overstating his case. Because if his science was solid and conclusive, it would have had implications on the way animals are being used in research. That either may or not have happened. If it hasn't, than that's science and not a conspiracy doing it's work.

[Satans Little Helper]

1 hour ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

But I very well do, so that’s why I listen to heterodox views.

I do too. And I take them with a healthy grain of salt. I believe you've been pouring a bit of sugar on dear Bret.

What kind of science-field is your expertise/profession? If you want to have an honest conversation, start there instead of putting Bret in front of you like a safety shield. (and bitch about people not agreeing with you)

personal disclaimer: i work for a government institute responsible for deciding whether or not to allow new treatments into the healthcare system, amongst other things.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Satans Little Helper

[thefxbip]

5 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

A metric fuckton of projection going on here. First of all, I’ve spent the majority of my life studying and working in the sciences. And I think it’s bullshit that no matter how well versed in the sciences you are, no matter what your field, people will tell you that you aren’t qualified enough to have an opinion on it (other than “shut up and take your shot”). And if you are somehow qualified enough to have an opinion, and that opinion runs contrary to yours, that person must be a ‘lone idiot’.  I get it, I’m not gonna kick the pilot out of the cockpit at the first sign of turbulence and 5 minutes on google. But this happens to be in my area of general vocation, so I’m trying to peel back all of the layers of bullshit to see what is really going on as best as I can tell. If you think I’m anti-vax you’ve done well to pigeonhole me without attempting to comprehend where I’m actually coming from (that may well be my fault as well).  If you want to take any of the vaccines, great. Do it. It’s your choice, and it may very well be a good one for you. All of my immediate family has taken it. I didn’t scream at them that the 5G nanobots have taken over their brains and now Big Bad Bill has control over their CNS or some such bs. This is the internet, right? There is A TON of garbage information out there, and wading through it can be tough for even a trained professional. But there is a cautionary tale in here somewhere for the blind believer as well, and it doesn’t take a discerning eye to see all of the ways this could go very wrong, and if you don’t want to concern yourself with that then ok. But I very well do, so that’s why I listen to heterodox views.

''the house is on fire but we should not use fire extinguisher because im afraid it will get in my eyes''

I repeat: what the hell are you proposing to fight Covid then?

This could all go wrong? what does that mean but some subtle anti-vaxxing? what about doing nothing against covid go wrong? is that the extent of your proposition? your so called science training was called out earlier as really biased training from sketchy sites get real.You have no specialized training in virology, epidemiology.

If you do prove it so.Saying '' i have training in science'' is not enough, i don't trust your word for it.What are your exact qualifications and diplomas and institution of training?

We've had enough patience with your claims of expertise.You speak against vaccines in the name of science, in the middle of a pandemic.Don't you realize this sketchy talk and these sketchy links can lead to endangered lives?

It's all opinions and all good until people die and get sick.What you are trying to do in here is to convince people that vaccines should not be use against Covid.There might very well a few people convinced and that may very well lead them to become sick or transmit to virus around eventually.Try to be responsible.If you're not an expert take the back seat and don't get ahead of yourself proclaiming you are.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by thefxbip

[thefxbip]

Sorry if im a bit aggro but at least BCM don't act like he's a scientist or an expert. Fake credentials should not be tolerated in pandemic times.

Edited May 26, 2021 by thefxbip

[brian trageskin]

7 hours ago, thefxbip said:

Easy to criticize vaccines and lockdowns.

But without science, scientists, health workers,vaccines and lockdowns we would be in such deeper shit you can't even imagine.

Easy to be an armchair pandemic vaccine critic and rebel.But some people are actually doing something to get through this and it goes further than ''yo the vaccine is dangerous, yo my freedom is more important than the pandemic, lets just do nothing and ignore covid it will magically disappear''

Because that's low key what is proposed if there is no lockdowns or vaccine and action taken.And the result of this would be lot's of people getting sick and the virus getting out of hand.How the hell else are you gonna get through this? vitamin c and denial? What the hell are you proposing but denial? This is a global emergency situation.While you're heroically watching youtube thinking you're doing work for the good of humanity, to protect it against evil vaccines, some people are actually doing real work to beat this shit.

Lot's of empty pseudo-critical thinking not many solutions.

i'll tell you right away what the problem is here: for some reason, you've decided that periods were the only punctuation marks that didn't require a space afterwards. why? why the selective discrimination? what childhood trauma led to this abomination? 

[thefxbip]

3 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

i'll tell you right away what the problem is here: for some reason, you've decided that periods were the only punctuation marks that didn't require a space afterwards. why? why the selective discrimination? what childhood trauma led to this abomination? 

You can call me:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spaceman.

Edited May 26, 2021 by thefxbip

[brian trageskin]

also, as this is your dupe account, why haven't you been banned yet? 

reaching out to a mod right now to remedy this

Spoiler

 

[thefxbip]

Vaccination being going pretty well in Montreal. Cases are going down and down.I'm getting (prudently) optimistic for real, for the first time since the start of the pandemic towards easing of restrictions and what's next. We are having real improvement, things are starting to look promising.The mRNA vaccine is said to be effective against variants too. Which is excellent news.

[thefxbip]

I sometime wonder about a future where the pandemic is over, in 5-10-15 years from now, and i talk with my now ultra hardcore conspiracist friends and we just have a laugh about these wild times and not give a fuck anymore as its a thing of the past.

''man remember the time in 2020 when i thought that 5g was giving covid and that the vaccine was Bill Gates plan to dominate the world? man what was i thinking''

''lol right mate? crazy times''

''yeah''

''cheers''

''cheers'

- play some music -

Edited May 26, 2021 by thefxbip

[Rubin Farr]

[Himelstein]

Double edged sword. Seems like the pandemic is ending in my town. They still enforce masks some places, but only dr offices seem to really care. Got used to getting coffee delivered to me. Now that’s over and my favorite place has opened back up, but stopped delivering. I should be happy, but damn, it was nice gettin that shit on the porch!

[Alcofribas]

9 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

A metric fuckton of projection going on here. First of all, I’ve spent the majority of my life studying and working in the sciences. And I think it’s bullshit that no matter how well versed in the sciences you are, no matter what your field, people will tell you that you aren’t qualified enough to have an opinion on it (other than “shut up and take your shot”). And if you are somehow qualified enough to have an opinion, and that opinion runs contrary to yours, that person must be a ‘lone idiot’.  I get it, I’m not gonna kick the pilot out of the cockpit at the first sign of turbulence and 5 minutes on google. But this happens to be in my area of general vocation, so I’m trying to peel back all of the layers of bullshit to see what is really going on as best as I can tell. If you think I’m anti-vax you’ve done well to pigeonhole me without attempting to comprehend where I’m actually coming from (that may well be my fault as well).  If you want to take any of the vaccines, great. Do it. It’s your choice, and it may very well be a good one for you. All of my immediate family has taken it. I didn’t scream at them that the 5G nanobots have taken over their brains and now Big Bad Bill has control over their CNS or some such bs. This is the internet, right? There is A TON of garbage information out there, and wading through it can be tough for even a trained professional. But there is a cautionary tale in here somewhere for the blind believer as well, and it doesn’t take a discerning eye to see all of the ways this could go very wrong, and if you don’t want to concern yourself with that then ok. But I very well do, so that’s why I listen to heterodox views.

aside from vague indications of your “general vocation” in “the sciences,” what exactly is the point you’re making? that the vaccine has not been properly studied bc it’s too new? that there’s lots of dumb stuff online? idk man, I’m dont subscribe to the “heterodox views” podcast or anything but this all seems extremely vague and half-baked. it’s true enough but I’m definitely not seeing your point

[Rubin Farr]

50 minutes ago, Alcofribas said:

aside from vague indications of your “general vocation” in “the sciences,” what exactly is the point you’re making? that the vaccine has not been properly studied bc it’s too new? that there’s lots of dumb stuff online? idk man, I’m dont subscribe to the “heterodox views” podcast or anything but this all seems extremely vague and half-baked. it’s true enough but I’m definitely not seeing your point

Hey man, how dare you question a podcast, I mean it’s a PODCAST. The very foundation of Western civilization as we know it, and they don’t let just anyone do a podcast. No sir.

[Alcofribas]

I have a PhD in podcasting. In fact, the p stands for pod

[cwmbrancity]

[ghsotword]

11 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

A metric fuckton of projection going on here. First of all, I’ve spent the majority of my life studying and working in the sciences. And I think it’s bullshit that no matter how well versed in the sciences you are, no matter what your field, people will tell you that you aren’t qualified enough to have an opinion on it (other than “shut up and take your shot”). And if you are somehow qualified enough to have an opinion, and that opinion runs contrary to yours, that person must be a ‘lone idiot’.  I get it, I’m not gonna kick the pilot out of the cockpit at the first sign of turbulence and 5 minutes on google. But this happens to be in my area of general vocation, so I’m trying to peel back all of the layers of bullshit to see what is really going on as best as I can tell. If you think I’m anti-vax you’ve done well to pigeonhole me without attempting to comprehend where I’m actually coming from (that may well be my fault as well).  If you want to take any of the vaccines, great. Do it. It’s your choice, and it may very well be a good one for you. All of my immediate family has taken it. I didn’t scream at them that the 5G nanobots have taken over their brains and now Big Bad Bill has control over their CNS or some such bs. This is the internet, right? There is A TON of garbage information out there, and wading through it can be tough for even a trained professional. But there is a cautionary tale in here somewhere for the blind believer as well, and it doesn’t take a discerning eye to see all of the ways this could go very wrong, and if you don’t want to concern yourself with that then ok. But I very well do, so that’s why I listen to heterodox views.

I think Claudius t Anuuslim posted in a wrong thread by mistake. Mods, can you move his post to the flat earth thread?

[ignatius]

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by ignatius

[chenGOD]

Saw that on reddit. I'd take the $2K and go get the vax.

[dcom]

Vax On, Vax Off?

Edited May 26, 2021 by dcom

[dcom]

Vaccines: A Measured Response - What is the science behind the anti-vaccine movement, and is it any good? Let’s find out!

Edited May 26, 2021 by dcom

[usagi]

Cumboy sniping from the sidelines, as if his own hands are clean:

 

Quote

 

London: Tens of thousands of people died because of incompetence, indecision and neglect by Boris Johnson and his government, the Prime Minister’s former chief adviser has declared during evidence about Britain’s chaotic handling of the pandemic.

Dominic Cummings – a key force behind Brexit and Johnson’s thumping 2019 election win – savaged his ex-boss during seven hours of damning testimony on Wednesday which sent Downing Street into damage control.

Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings were allies but have fallen out. CREDIT:AP/GETTY IMAGES

“When the public needed us most, the government failed,” Cummings said. “Tens of thousands of people died who didn’t need to die.”

Cummings confirmed a frustrated Johnson once said he would rather see “bodies pile high in their thousands” than order a second lockdown over winter - a remark the Prime Minister has repeatedly denied making.

However, Johnson did not deny on Wednesday that he quipped COVID-19 was “only killing over 80s”.

 

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s former chief aide Dominic Cummings says the government “failed” the British people in its handling of the coronavirus pandemic.

 

Appearing before a parliamentary inquiry into what went wrong during the initial outbreak in early 2020 and the second deadly wave over Christmas, Cummings also claimed:

• Johnson once thought coronavirus was like swine flu and suggested that he be injected live on television to prove COVID-19 wasn’t dangerous;
• as the pandemic took hold in Italy, the Prime Minister was distracted by negotiations over his divorce and plans by girlfriend Carrie Symonds to announce her pregnancy;
• the UK’s most senior civil servant urged the government to liken COVID-19 to chicken pox and floated the idea of mass infection parties to help build herd immunity; and
• Johnson expressed regret about ordering the first lockdown and told colleagues he wished he had instead behaved like the mayor in the film Jaws, who insisted the beaches remain open.

Nearly 130,000 people have died from COVID-19 in the United Kingdom.

The government has faced repeated questions about why it waited so long to introduce a lockdown last March, never closed the borders and had little testing equipment and personal protection material available for frontline health workers.

A sign on a deserted street in Hackney, London in April 2020. CREDIT:GETTY

“The government itself and Number 10 was not operating on a war footing in February on this in any way, shape or form,” Cummings said. “Lots of key people were literally skiing in the middle of February.”

However, he reserved his strongest criticism for Johnson, who he likened to a “shopping trolley smashing from one side of the aisle to the other” which could not be controlled.

Asked whether Johnson was fit to hold office, Cummings replied: “No.”

He also said Health Secretary Matt Hancock deserved to be sacked for “at least 15 to 20 things”, including lying to colleagues and the public during the pandemic.

Cummings regularly advised Johnson that “we are going to kill people” unless Hancock was fired. Johnson nearly moved against his health minister at the start of the pandemic but opted against it.

A spokesperson for Hancock denied the Health Secretary had lied.

In one of his more serious charges, Cummings claimed Hancock had reassured cabinet colleagues that people being transferred from hospital to nursing homes would be tested before they were transported - something which didn’t happen and led to thousands of deaths.

“While the government rhetoric was, ‘We have put a shield around care homes and blah blah blah’, it was complete nonsense,” he said.

Cummings said the government’s initial plan was to achieve herd immunity and not impose measures to halt mass community transmission. The government eventually realised that strategy would kill hundreds of thousands and crush the National Health Service, so changed course to introduce a lockdown in late March.

This confusion delayed action by crucial weeks, Cummings said. He also said the government operated on the mistaken belief that the British public would not accept widespread lockdowns and track-and-trace regimes.

“Those two assumptions were completely central to the official plan and were both obviously completely wrong.”

He also recalled that as the pandemic gathered pace, senior civil servant Helen McNamara walked into one meeting and said she had just been told by bureaucrats that there was no plan to deal with the impending disaster.

“I think we are absolutely f---ed,” McNamara said, according to Cummings. “I think this country is heading for a disaster, I think we are going to kill thousands of people.”

The political implications of Wednesday’s revelations are unclear. Johnson is riding a wave of popularity in Britain due to the government’s world-leading vaccination program, and Cummings’ own credibility was damaged when he seemingly broke lockdown rules last year to drive from London to northern England despite having COVID-19.

Asked whether he had failed the public, the Prime Minister told Parliament on Wednesday: “The handling of this pandemic has been one of the most difficult things this country has had to do for a very long time. And none of the decisions have been easy.

“At every stage we have tried to minimise loss of life, to protect the NHS and have followed the best scientific advice we can.”

Dominic Cummings arrives for the parliamentary committee hearing. CREDIT:AP

Cummings was a key player in the Brexit campaign and then followed Johnson into Downing Street as his chief adviser. He quit last November during a power struggle, prompting claims his attack on Wednesday was motivated by revenge.

Cummings was repeatedly challenged on why he didn’t do more at the time.

“There’s no doubt in retrospect it was a huge failing of mine and I bitterly regret I didn’t hit the emergency panic button earlier than I did,” he said.

“I failed and I apologise for it.”

Cummings said he had decided by late last year that Johnson was unfit to lead Britain and regretted not resigning when the Prime Minister procrastinated about a second lockdown last year.

“I’m not smart, I’ve not built great things in the world, it’s completely crackers that I was in [Downing Street], the same as it’s crackers that Boris Johnson was in there,” Cummings said.

“Any system that leaves people with the choice between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn is obviously a system that’s gone extremely badly wrong. There are thousands of people in this country who could offer better leadership than those two.”

Cummings also slammed the civil service for being unprepared for the pandemic and compared the situation to “lions being led by donkeys”.

His evidence offers a small insight into what can be expected at a royal commission-style inquiry that is scheduled to begin next year. Cummings urged MPs to demand the probe be brought forward to this year.

“There is absolutely no excuse for delaying it. And the longer it’s delayed, the more people will rewrite memories, the more documents will go astray, the more the whole thing will just become cancerous.”

 

[zero]

just curious, what's the mask situation in everyone's area? Texas lifted it's mandate months ago, but everyone kept wearing them and most businesses still required one. but since the CDC made the announcement a few weeks ago, they've been slowly been becoming scarce out there in the wild. businesses have mostly dropped their requirements now. I'm fully vaccinated and stopped wearing one for the past week or so. obviously if somewhere I go requires one I'm going to oblige, but I'm not feeling like I really need to wear one any more, thanks to the shots.

[ignatius]

11 minutes ago, zero said:

just curious, what's the mask situation in everyone's area? Texas lifted it's mandate months ago, but everyone kept wearing them and most businesses still required one. but since the CDC made the announcement a few weeks ago, they've been slowly been becoming scarce out there in the wild. businesses have mostly dropped their requirements now. I'm fully vaccinated and stopped wearing one for the past week or so. obviously if somewhere I go requires one I'm going to oblige, but I'm not feeling like I really need to wear one any more, thanks to the shots.

businesses still requiring them here. my county has only just this week moved to one of the lower danger risks for infection so that's good. i wear when when i go to stores and will as long as they require it if not longer.. had a vax'd friend over the other day and didn't wear one inside which was first time for that. 

[dcom]

25 minutes ago, zero said:

just curious, what's the mask situation in everyone's area?

Masks are mandatory in public transport (trams, buses, trains) in Helsinki; highly recommended in public places like shops and malls. Finland is over 40 % first dose, nearing 10 % second dose. Depending on the prevalence of infections in an area, some of the social distancing restrictions have been lifted, the general rule of 2 metres is still in effect, but it's allowed to gather in groups of ten at the moment. I always wear a mask when out and about and indoors, and probably will until the orders and recommendations are lifted.

Wearing a mask is a non-issue to me, even after my upcoming second dose - there will be a lot of people who still haven't had their first when I've had my booster come end of July.

Edited May 27, 2021 by dcom